New GC post about pally haste.

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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:58 pm

theckhd wrote:Correct version:

Previous GC: 20% chance on CS/HotR gives an average proc rate of 0.2*(1+haste)/4.5 procs per second. At 0 haste, this is 0.044 procs per second, which is also the amount of HP generated. This assumes that you can take advantage of that proc before the next CS, which is universally true in CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X.

New GC: 30% chance on avoid. Assume a 1.5-second swing timer and 20% avoidance after the -9% boss penalty (reasonable, it's about what I have on Theck with around 10% haste rating). Average proc rate of 0.2*0.3/1.5=0.04, about a 10% nerf to the generation rates. In general it will be a little lower because of bunching (i.e. 2 avoids in a row trigger GC before you can use the first proc).

In practice, the bigger issue is that we lose about 50% of that benefit because of tank swaps. In my opinion that's a problem - it should slant a little on the heavy side in order to offset that issue as well as our reliance on a fast boss swing timer. A ~50% proc rate (0.2*0.5/1.5=0.0667) would be a little more reasonable.

That said, the survivability simulations are quite interesting now. Mastery and avoidance are giving haste a solid run for its money.


In addition there are boss attacks that are not avoidable, and times when the boss is channeling, etc. and not providing an option to avoid. What is the correct average swing timer for a boss in Panda?
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:23 am

I found both 1.5 seconds (Elegon for example) and 2.0 seconds (Zor'lok for example) in our combat logs.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Schroom » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 am

so i guess starting 5.2 we won't be killing trash before pulling the boss, but just offtanking it, get more of those procs :lol:
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:08 am

Isn't there some nice way to pull critters without killing them, like Retribution?

Leads me to an amusing thought - isn't out dodge/parry and whatever chance improved against lower-level mobs?
GC is going to proc like MAD in old tier raiding...
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:19 am

Sagara wrote:Isn't there some nice way to pull critters without killing them, like Retribution?

Leads me to an amusing thought - isn't out dodge/parry and whatever chance improved against lower-level mobs?
GC is going to proc like MAD in old tier raiding...


If you enter combat with a critter it runs away from you and will drop combat after 30 seconds.

The avoidance negation is 1.5% per level advantage; I believe this works both for NPCs and PCs.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Zalaria » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:34 am

Some critters will attack you. They hit for 1.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 pm

- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby smetson » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:01 pm

Flex wrote:- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).


Where did they say this? I would like to track that discussion.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Flex wrote:- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).


Holy crap.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby daishan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:02 am

Anyone seen what proc chances they're planning?
Guess maybe half what they where, so 10% for CS/SotR and 15% for an avoided attack maybe?
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Vayacondios » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:28 am

They haven't said yet, they also said they were going to buff SoJ and SoR but didn't have numbers for ether. My guess is they don't even know what the numbers are yet for any of it, we still got aways to go in the beta so they have time to do some major tweeks still.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:44 am

Is it just me or does half/half sounds worse than one or the other? The chance that we get procs from CS/HotR and from Dodge/Parry at the same time means we just wasted one proc. We already have that chance with just Dodge/Parry, but it seems more apparent now. The X's in our rotations are 3, 2, 3 and 1 GCD away from each other, and both 3's and the 2 have a CS/HotR in there that could cause a proc.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:01 am

Well, we will get some procs when not tanking, which is something that has been brought forward.
In the same vein, we will lose a few procs when compare to either of the 'pure' solutions, because of the threat of double procs. So, what would happen is globally more procs than the "on avoidance" model, but less procs when we are actually tanking.

Seriously, though, something *will* have to give at one time or another. Because if we flip back to the "on attack" proc, Blizz will still be looking for another way to buff Avoidance. Right now, Grand Crusader looks like a reasonable and balanced solution. I'm not sure there are many other ways to make Avoidance attractive while keeping up balanced, unless we start toying with ShoR.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:16 am

Indeed. I would've been quite ok with GC coming off avoidance on it's own. It's a nerf to our HP generation, sure, but it only hits the unreliable proc part, leaving our reliable generators (CS/HotR and Judgment) alone. Since we couldn't rely on the proc in the first place, we had to be able to survive without it in the first place.

It might overall be a slight nerf to damage output as well, but mostly when we're not the one actively tanking, in which case the lack of vengeance makes us hit as hard as a wet noodle anyhow.
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