Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:16 am

does anyone have a bluepost confirming this new introduced cap? I haven't seen anything announcing this.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:29 am

Schroom wrote:does anyone have a bluepost confirming this new introduced cap? I haven't seen anything announcing this.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2461 ... january-8/

January 8

General
Attack Power gained from Vengeance is now capped at the player's maximum health.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Diceone » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:55 pm

Jaitee wrote:i got a few k ap over my max health the other day in LFR on windlord the adds where all at 9 stacks of their debuff (god i love it when nonone removed that debuff) and i had 630k ap iirc while only having 616k HP was holding a steady 650k dps on the aoe without lights hammer

i think that and possibly heroic empress (ive heard the adds there give insane vengeance for the first few seconds till they all spread out)

honestly though apart from some gimicky things like that which will be few and far between this change wont affect us at all!


Are you sure it was that much AP from vengeance or that much ap total? You get ~20kish ap base (I think I have 23k without vengance in raids).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:12 am

yes don't forget max AP = Stamina + BaseAP from gear and so on. The stuff written under attack power with 0 vengeance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Nooska » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:14 am

Nit picking; Max AP = Health + AP@0Vengeance
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:21 am

AoE Rotation Simulations is still very empty :(

no time yet? oversight from me?

what else changes except for "switch to HoTR instead of CS"?
HW falls behind I guess? Cons becomes stronger?
what about seals for DPS when does SoR become bether then SoT if at all.
lvl 90 talent. for 1 taget ES. for at least 2 HP becomes stronger if I understand correctly, how many enemys do you need for LH become stronger than HP?

what is the best HoPo generating AoE roation?
what is the best DPS-AOE roation?

can anyone help? :>
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:38 am

Been busy with other projects, but I haven't forgotten.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:29 am

I'm guessing it doesn't but can anyone confirm if Avenger's Shield procs SoI or Battle Healer and if so just the first hit or all 3?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:09 pm

It doesn't proc either.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:57 am

Thx for the conformation.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:46 pm

First few sims are updated for 5.1 and now use the T14H gear set. Also... AOE rotation sim is now posted. I'll update the rest of them tomorrow.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:13 am

oh thank you very very much :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:28 am

theckhd wrote:Also... AOE rotation sim is now posted.


Thanks for that. Reading it, I realised I had forgotten all about SoR with the switch from SoT to SoI (and my love for the glyph of battle healer). Maybe remembering it will help my AOE threat which seems really weak.

It's more an experience question than a theorycraft one, but do you recommend switching from SoI to SoR on big trash packs? I guess the answer is no if survival is an issue, but yes otherwise.

The large packs that really stick in my mind are at the start of HoF but ironically those are the LFR encounters were I fear most for my survival (those stuns and shockwave type stuff on the ground, shudder...).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:36 pm

It will help your DPS to switch to SoR, but the difference isn't going to be that huge either (about 2.5k DPS per mob, basically). Also note that your threat will actually go down in all likelihood, because the 12.5k TPS per mob you gain is offset by the beastly healing threat of Battle Healer and SoI.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:08 am

econ21 wrote:The large packs that really stick in my mind are at the start of HoF


theckhd wrote:Also note that your threat will actually go down in all likelihood, because the 12.5k TPS per mob you gain is offset by the beastly healing threat of Battle Healer and SoI.


THIS!

and you don't mean by any chance the trashpacks that ignore the aggro table at the start of HoF and after a couple of seconds fixate on random players? ^^
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:25 am

Schroom wrote:you don't mean by any chance the trashpacks that ignore the aggro table at the start of HoF and after a couple of seconds fixate on random players? ^^


I guess those would be prime candidates for switching to SoR as aggro does not matter (after 2 secs)?

I was thinking more about the other packs that stun and do nasty ground effect things. They seem lethal to tanks in LFR: it's a rare LFR where a tank does NOT die before the 1st HoF boss is pulled. But when I first encountered them in 10N last week, they were far less intimidating. I guess it's a matter of cc and healing rather than seal choice.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:31 am

You mean the skullbashers I guess. They're nasty in the sense their big attack is very powerful, and in the chaos of LFR you tend to not notice it until you ate one.
I usually got out of my way to grab those and focus on their "ready" posture to get the hell out of dodge. Reminds me a bit of GW2, actually.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:06 am

econ21 wrote:
Schroom wrote:you don't mean by any chance the trashpacks that ignore the aggro table at the start of HoF and after a couple of seconds fixate on random players? ^^


I guess those would be prime candidates for switching to SoR as aggro does not matter (after 2 secs)?

I was thinking more about the other packs that stun and do nasty ground effect things. They seem lethal to tanks in LFR: it's a rare LFR where a tank does NOT die before the 1st HoF boss is pulled. But when I first encountered them in 10N last week, they were far less intimidating. I guess it's a matter of cc and healing rather than seal choice.

Likely more to do with the fact that when raiding in an organised group the healers are actually healing, and not AFK.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:59 am

Theck, I should post this on your blog but haven't figure out how to do so: about gear sets, I think what some comments were asking for is a "haste stacked" gear set that reflects gemming haste rather than stamina and having at most one stamina trinket (you could use the ghost iron dragonling as the other; it's low ilevel but a good way of getting effectively another 1800 haste if that's what is being stacked). You could look at Fetzie's gear if you want a real world illustration of the kind of haste stacked gear set I'm referring to.

From reading MMO-Champion, Tankspot and Ask Mr Robot forums, it seems that many people who have read your work on haste have really taken it to heart and are not persuaded by the attractions of stamina. (Instead, with the double cost of stamina in gems and the value of secondary stats for active mitigation, gemming stamina seems unpopular amongst many tanks of all classes). I know you don't agree with them, but I think that's what some of the comments were asking.

I don't think many people are that interested in a gear set that sacrifices expertise for haste - your results about hitting caps are widely accepted.

[Personally, I've been curious about the haste vs stamina trade off for a while. At my gear level (489), I think I could trade off about 50k health buffed for about 13% haste through gems and a trinket. I think it would give me about 5k more dps but am not sure about the survivability effects - how many more shotrs would I get? 13%? As a 10N raider, it might not matter much either way for me but I die often enough that I've been sticking with stamina.]
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:18 am

Don't forget that guilds progressing through the heroic content right now have at least ten items levels more of gear on every raider than guilds that finished the progressing weeks ago. I don't think anybody in our raid is under 490, and most are probably around 495 equipped. Upgrading a 489 item to 502 is the equivalent of a mixed stamina gem instead of a pure secondary gem, or a pure stamina gem instead of a mixed gem. So while a tank in 480 gear would need stamina gems to get to the EH health of a 490 geared tank to live through the fight comfortably, the 490 tank already has that EH on the gear and can look at stats like haste instead.

So far I have yet to find a fight that required more stamina than I have right now. And if I do, I can just swap the 480 haste gems for stamina (~23k life raid buffed) or mastery, and swap to a stamina trinket in the second trinket slot (~30k life raid buffed).
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:30 am

You're both missing the point, in general. Point for point, stamina is hands-down better for survivability than haste is. There's no question about that. When you say "I have enough stamina/EH," what you're really saying is "I have enough survivability. If you're stacking haste instead of Stamina, you're not doing it because you want more survivability. You're doing it because you want more DPS. The added survivability is just a bonus at that point.

Unless you really do think that you're stacking haste for survivability, in which case you're completely misguided. Haste is a pretty terrible survivability stat - stamina, hit, and expertise all outclass it by a mile. The only reason we choose it is that mastery and dodge/parry are just as terrible or worse at the moment, and it gives the added DPS as a nice fringe benefit.

Now, tell me again why it makes sense to run survivability simulations for a case where you're stacking haste for DPS? If you're already in "gear for DPS mode," how is a survivability simulation going to change your gearing strategy?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:42 am

Trying to rephrase here. What's basically hapenning is, we set a *cap* to how much Stamina we find acceptable, and then switch to the next best thing. Considering Hit and Expertise get capped as well, we move on to Haste. Right?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:36 am

Sagara wrote:Trying to rephrase here. What's basically hapenning is, we set a *cap* to how much Stamina we find acceptable, and then switch to the next best thing. Considering Hit and Expertise get capped as well, we move on to Haste. Right?

^ that

If I was in 480 gear instead of 498, I'd be using stamina gems. But I have enough stamina. I'm not dying unless I make a mistake (forget to hit GoAK for Tayak Assault2) or we are killing ourselves (idiot activates a Wind Bomb). Enrages, whether the hard sort or the soft sort, are what is stopping us killing things right now.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Kihra » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:56 am

What's interesting about this tier is that I felt I had enough survivability very early on, even in 25H content. Maybe that was a product of being able to VP-upgrade gear. Anyway, I cut away from Stamina gems very early in progression, i.e., at around 8/16H.
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