New GC post about pally haste.

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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:49 pm

The maths I did were slanted to minimise the influence. I don't have stats on boss swing speeds, so I used 1.5 seconds as convenient maths because we do our rotation at 1.5 seconds without any haste. I also computed our HP gen based on 0 haste, which is unrealistic since we like haste and tend to stack it up a bit.

So the nerf to our DPS on a single-target boss fight should be noticeable. 25% fewer AS means fewer SotR because we're not getting the HP from using the AS in the Grand Crusader window. Likely the nerf will be greater.

When we're not tanking, we're losing 3 x AS per minute (using very conservative maths), and therefore 1 SotR per minute. That's a significant DPS loss.

Yes, we get a DPS boost when we face multiple targets, but then it becomes a selection issue for progression raiders - sit the pally tanks on tank-swap single-boss fights, and use them only as AoE tanks. Is this BC again?
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Well, your math is also incorrect, so there's that. But you're right it's a fairly sizable nerf.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:17 pm

Correct version:

Previous GC: 20% chance on CS/HotR gives an average proc rate of 0.2*(1+haste)/4.5 procs per second. At 0 haste, this is 0.044 procs per second, which is also the amount of HP generated. This assumes that you can take advantage of that proc before the next CS, which is universally true in CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X.

New GC: 30% chance on avoid. Assume a 1.5-second swing timer and 20% avoidance after the -9% boss penalty (reasonable, it's about what I have on Theck with around 10% haste rating). Average proc rate of 0.2*0.3/1.5=0.04, about a 10% nerf to the generation rates. In general it will be a little lower because of bunching (i.e. 2 avoids in a row trigger GC before you can use the first proc).

In practice, the bigger issue is that we lose about 50% of that benefit because of tank swaps. In my opinion that's a problem - it should slant a little on the heavy side in order to offset that issue as well as our reliance on a fast boss swing timer. A ~50% proc rate (0.2*0.5/1.5=0.0667) would be a little more reasonable.

That said, the survivability simulations are quite interesting now. Mastery and avoidance are giving haste a solid run for its money.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby DisRuptive1 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:20 pm

Koatanga wrote:So unless I miss my guess, our AS procs just got an 18% nerf.


Your math was right but you subtracted 50 from 68 when you should have divided 68 by 50. It's actually a 36% nerf if the rest of your logic is correct.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:54 pm

Yeah, but it's not. He's calculating the chance of having 1 or more AS procs in ~9 attacks, but only giving that probability 1 holy power worth of weight. When in reality, you'll average more than one proc in 9 attacks. My calculation just looks at the steady-state time average; in theory if he does his calculation properly by counting up all the binomial statistics, he'll get my answer.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:58 pm

theckhd wrote:Correct version:

Previous GC: 20% chance on CS/HotR gives an average proc rate of 0.2*(1+haste)/4.5 procs per second. At 0 haste, this is 0.044 procs per second, which is also the amount of HP generated. This assumes that you can take advantage of that proc before the next CS, which is universally true in CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X.

New GC: 30% chance on avoid. Assume a 1.5-second swing timer and 20% avoidance after the -9% boss penalty (reasonable, it's about what I have on Theck with around 10% haste rating). Average proc rate of 0.2*0.3/1.5=0.04, about a 10% nerf to the generation rates. In general it will be a little lower because of bunching (i.e. 2 avoids in a row trigger GC before you can use the first proc).

In practice, the bigger issue is that we lose about 50% of that benefit because of tank swaps. In my opinion that's a problem - it should slant a little on the heavy side in order to offset that issue as well as our reliance on a fast boss swing timer. A ~50% proc rate (0.2*0.5/1.5=0.0667) would be a little more reasonable.

That said, the survivability simulations are quite interesting now. Mastery and avoidance are giving haste a solid run for its money.


In addition there are boss attacks that are not avoidable, and times when the boss is channeling, etc. and not providing an option to avoid. What is the correct average swing timer for a boss in Panda?
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:23 am

I found both 1.5 seconds (Elegon for example) and 2.0 seconds (Zor'lok for example) in our combat logs.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Schroom » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 am

so i guess starting 5.2 we won't be killing trash before pulling the boss, but just offtanking it, get more of those procs :lol:
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:08 am

Isn't there some nice way to pull critters without killing them, like Retribution?

Leads me to an amusing thought - isn't out dodge/parry and whatever chance improved against lower-level mobs?
GC is going to proc like MAD in old tier raiding...
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Fetzie » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:19 am

Sagara wrote:Isn't there some nice way to pull critters without killing them, like Retribution?

Leads me to an amusing thought - isn't out dodge/parry and whatever chance improved against lower-level mobs?
GC is going to proc like MAD in old tier raiding...


If you enter combat with a critter it runs away from you and will drop combat after 30 seconds.

The avoidance negation is 1.5% per level advantage; I believe this works both for NPCs and PCs.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Zalaria » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:34 am

Some critters will attack you. They hit for 1.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 pm

- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby smetson » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:01 pm

Flex wrote:- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).


Where did they say this? I would like to track that discussion.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Flex wrote:- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).


Holy crap.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby daishan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:02 am

Anyone seen what proc chances they're planning?
Guess maybe half what they where, so 10% for CS/SotR and 15% for an avoided attack maybe?
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Vayacondios » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:28 am

They haven't said yet, they also said they were going to buff SoJ and SoR but didn't have numbers for ether. My guess is they don't even know what the numbers are yet for any of it, we still got aways to go in the beta so they have time to do some major tweeks still.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:44 am

Is it just me or does half/half sounds worse than one or the other? The chance that we get procs from CS/HotR and from Dodge/Parry at the same time means we just wasted one proc. We already have that chance with just Dodge/Parry, but it seems more apparent now. The X's in our rotations are 3, 2, 3 and 1 GCD away from each other, and both 3's and the 2 have a CS/HotR in there that could cause a proc.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:01 am

Well, we will get some procs when not tanking, which is something that has been brought forward.
In the same vein, we will lose a few procs when compare to either of the 'pure' solutions, because of the threat of double procs. So, what would happen is globally more procs than the "on avoidance" model, but less procs when we are actually tanking.

Seriously, though, something *will* have to give at one time or another. Because if we flip back to the "on attack" proc, Blizz will still be looking for another way to buff Avoidance. Right now, Grand Crusader looks like a reasonable and balanced solution. I'm not sure there are many other ways to make Avoidance attractive while keeping up balanced, unless we start toying with ShoR.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:16 am

Indeed. I would've been quite ok with GC coming off avoidance on it's own. It's a nerf to our HP generation, sure, but it only hits the unreliable proc part, leaving our reliable generators (CS/HotR and Judgment) alone. Since we couldn't rely on the proc in the first place, we had to be able to survive without it in the first place.

It might overall be a slight nerf to damage output as well, but mostly when we're not the one actively tanking, in which case the lack of vengeance makes us hit as hard as a wet noodle anyhow.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby daishan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:24 am

I'd agree with that, depending on exact proc %'s I'm guessing this'll still be a small single target nerf but an aoe buff.
I'd be perfectly happy if they left things how they are, but they seem to be focused on making avoidance stronger for us and this seems to be the easiest way to do that and still leave haste as a viable gearing strategy.
In an ideal world they'd rebuild SotR and get haste mast and avoidance all balanced, it's just I have very little faith that they could manage that especially as getting haste and mast as close as they are seems to of happened by mistake :roll:
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:43 am

In an ideal world, they'd curb-stomp Sanctity of Battle to the ground and be done with the haste insanity we've been in. And THEN get back to making haste and maybe crit attractive to tanks in 6.0.

But since players are sissies that can't accept when the toy they dug out of the old cellar is taken from them, we'll have to live with it until 6.0.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby daishan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:59 am

Guess I'm a sissy then :p
I think Sanctity of Battle along with active mitigation is by far the best most fun thing they've ever added to the game, the more haste I get the faster the rotation gets, I can feel hero. Imo it's just all round awesome :D
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:35 am

Ho, don't get me wrong, I love it as well - enormously so. But it's not meant to be in the cards right now. Or at least, not to be the "king" behind the "ace" of Hit/Exp.

I really believe this experience will be an eye-opener, and that Blizz will try to push for DPS stats to matter for us tanks. But it's too late to make it happen in MoP.
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Re: New GC post about pally haste.

Postby Fetzie » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:14 am

Swing times:

ToES
Protector Kaolan: 2 seconds
Tsu-long: 1.5 seconds
Lei-Shi: does not melee, elemental looks like 1.5 seconds
Sha of Fear: looks like 2.5 seconds, outside of Thrash

MGV
Stone Guards: 2 seconds
Feng: 2 seconds
Garajal: 1.5 seconds
Spirit Kings: no melee/1.5 seconds
Elegon: 1.5 seconds
Will of the Emperor: 1.5 seconds

HoF
Zorlok: 2 seconds
Tayak: looks like 1.5 but he interrupts his melee so often it is hard to tell
garalon: no melee (N), 2 seconds (H only)
meljarak: 2 seconds
ambershaper: 1.5 seconds, monstrosity: 1.5 seconds
Grand Empress: 2 seconds

from our WoL (http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/78857/), heroic garalon was from the top ranked kill on WoL.
type = TYPE_DAMAGE
AND fullType = SWING_DAMAGE
AND targetName = "Déathangel"
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