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Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:52 am

I think it's extremely weird that I'm the most "pro-liberty" dude here, given that I'm in favour of big government, high taxes and have sympathies for Karl Marx :D

I think that quiz misses a lot of elements.

edit: Or maybe that's all covered by the "left/right" axis?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:12 am

I think the worst part is that there's no neutral answer
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:43 am

I was surprised I wasn't further left economically. I think the number of questions is a bit limited on this quiz, really.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:59 am

Brekkie wrote:Here's an example of the kind of self-described "conservatives" I know. This appeared on my news feed today.

American Sniper and Seal team 3 member Chris Kyle, the deadliest sniper in U.S. History was shot and killed at a gun range in Texas. This wasn't a freak act of insanity or something the media may try to spin it up to, all these shootings are coincidentally happening when Nobama is trying to pass his ban or firearms. Think about it people, when the order is passed to kill Americans from the President who would they NOT want out there with a rifle? Maybe the deadliest sniper in history. This was an organized shooting, I don't care what anyone says, Obama had a bill passed where he could instate Marshall Law and kill American citizens if need be. People like Chris Kyle are labeled Terrorists by the Obama administration now days, this country is going to hell in a hand basket, and its sad that I have to sit here and watch it happen. God Bless men like Chris Kyle, and my prayers are with his family and friends. Semper Fi


I know hundreds of people who think like that, and only you who think like you. Maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe there's a huge culture war. Maybe we as a society have simply forgotten how to be rational. I don't know.


That conservative you know is gonna have a field day with this article
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/20 ... icans?lite
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:03 am

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02 ... d-families
Kids aren't going to charter schools if they're "A" students. They go to charter schools because they're failing students and, by and large, the charter schools have a higher percentage of poor families, ethnically challenged families…

I guess.... your ethnicity handicap is inversely proportional to the melanin in your skin...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:07 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I was surprised I wasn't further left economically. I think the number of questions is a bit limited on this quiz, really.


Actually I'm surprised I came way to the left on economic issues, and rather central on social issues...

I kind of blame the fact there's no Neutral answer on that. Why can't I be "meh" on some issues/answers? why do I have to pick sides?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:23 am

Brekkie wrote:That attitude is basically what I associate with fiscal conservatism. And I quite frankly do not understand it. It does not make sense to me. It does not seem internally consistent, or coherently rational. It feels to me more like naive, folksy oversimplifications and wishful thinking than a serious political stance.

If I had access to Youtube at the moment, I would link a bit by Penn Gillette where he explains that he's opposed to the idea of publicly funded libraries in principle, but that he doesn't think they should be shut down tomorrow, or even ever. He accepts that people want them, that they're implemented, and that it isn't worth fighting over. I feel similarly on a variety of social issues. There was a point in time where the people were not beholden to the government for nearly as many issues as they do today. When you start letting the government make those decisions, it has to do so for what is perceived as the greater good, or at least the will of the masses of the voting electorate.

Brekkie wrote:At the end of the day, things cost money. Additionally, there is nothing inherently bad about managed debt. That is the disconnect I have with fiscal conservatism. Progressives don't want to be profligate purely for its own sake, we want minimal taxes just as much as the next person. But ultimately at some point you have to pay the bills and acknowledge reality.

And this is where you and I diverge. I agree that there are things that need to be managed. But I strongly disagree that there aren't many in BOTH parties in leadership who are guilty of spending for spending's sake, whether it's kickbacks to lobbyists, unions, defense contractors, or pork barrel logrolling to their home districts. The New Deal and the Great Society have done a great job of inculcating people to the government teat, depending on it for their answers. I agree that we have to pay the bills. The problem is that at this point we aren't, and even the tax proposed on the wealthy doesn't fix it. Ultimately everyone has to pay more either through higher taxes, lower spending on programs, or both, but you're right that no one wants to.

Brekkie wrote:So what is left? Not a whole lot.
This is the ugly truth about fiscal conservative ranting about our "big government" and profiligate ways. The vast majority of the budget is made up of things the overwhelming majority of Americans support and do not want cut. If you ask Americans whether we should cut spending they answer yes, but if you name programs to reduce or eliminate they say no to every single one. The fact is that welfare queens, Big Bird, and Planned Parenthood are simply such miniscule amounts of money as to be not even worth discussing in any serious debate over spending. Yet conservative politicians have been forced to pretend that major cuts can be accomplished on the back of this smokescreen, knowing that even their own constituents would not support the dismantlement of the New Deal.

Agreed. People want it both ways, and they've been told for at least 3 generations that they should get it. The fact that we're calling millions and billions quibbling small change is a sign of the gravity of the situation. In the end entitlements have to be cut or remanaged or privatized. We've been hearing for years that Medicare and Social Security aren't solvent, and no one has done anything significant to affect that in my lifetime.

Brekkie wrote:Fiscal conservativism sounds really great, but under scrutiny holds nothing original not already encompassed by progressive ideas, while at the same time laboring under a false view of reality that we can somehow have our cake and eat it too through generous social programs, pensions, and a big military, while simultaneously paying low taxes.

Perhaps it's time to progressively step away a bit from government dependence. Maybe a step at a time, gradually, teaching people to be responsible for their own lives. It's just a thought, and it certainly hasn't been done in the last 60 years.

...

I didn't include your original anecdote with your Gunny, I do think the private sector should be expected to police up their mess. I am not an environmentalist, but one of the tennets of conservatism is CONSERVATION. It is in the best interests of corporations to maintain the environment and act as good stewards, and we've already seen this in industries such as timber. If the people want to enact burdening legislation, I suggest you take a look at the great impact it's had in California in improving the economy, keeping local governments solvent, and improving the air quality in L.A.

That doesn't mean corporations should get a free pass. We as citizens and consumers should be voting with our buying power to enforce ethical practices that involve protecting what we care about as a society. If we don't, it's our own stupidity and I sincerely question how much protection we deserve from our own ignorance.

I lived for two years in South Korea, and I saw an incredibly capitalist country that that carefully manages and takes care of its environment and resources without overly burdening industry. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere.
A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. – Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:47 am

Torquemada wrote:So, apparently by the standards of this group, I'm the resident arch-conservative. Got it. =)


Not so fast!

Economic Left/Right: 1.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -3.74

Torquemada wrote:I didn't include your original anecdote with your Gunny, I do think the private sector should be expected to police up their mess. I am not an environmentalist, but one of the tennets of conservatism is CONSERVATION. It is in the best interests of corporations to maintain the environment and act as good stewards, and we've already seen this in industries such as timber. If the people want to enact burdening legislation, I suggest you take a look at the great impact it's had in California in improving the economy, keeping local governments solvent, and improving the air quality in L.A.



You're seeing this extensively in eco-tourism and the push for cap-and-trade or carbon taxes as well. Long term greed isn't a bad thing so long as you've effectively priced in all the inputs, which admittedly corporations have done a poor job at since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:03 am

I disagree that "almost everyone is a socialist". The only ones on the current chart that are far enough left to be able to say so are myself, Paxen, Klaud and Ami, and the last 2 are more in what would be "socialdemocratic" in my opinion.
The really fun thing is that Toque and Cogg, the only ones to the right of the center currently, are still far left of Barack Obama - oh and all of us are on the libertarian side of the up/down axis - where Obama is solidly in the blue square (Rightwing/authoritarian).


And; New link since we moved to a new page;
Maintankadin Political Crowd Chart
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:11 am

Nooska wrote:I disagree that "almost everyone is a socialist". The only ones on the current chart that are far enough left to be able to say so are myself, Paxen, Klaud and Ami, and the last 2 are more in what would be "socialdemocratic" in my opinion.
The really fun thing is that Toque and Cogg, the only ones to the right of the center currently, are still far left of Barack Obama - oh and all of us are on the libertarian side of the up/down axis - where Obama is solidly in the blue square (Rightwing/authoritarian).


And; New link since we moved to a new page;
Maintankadin Political Crowd Chart


I would agree with the overall assessment that Obama and Romney were very close, with Romney more economically right-wing. I think I would disagree that either is as far right on the spectrum as that site designates. We can argue campaign promises versus policy, or "compromise" to accomplish his agenda, but I would assert that his current tax platform, his spending platform for the last 4+ years, and the oral arguments presented to the Supreme Court in favor of the ACA put him at the minimum a centrist, if not over with y'all. That doesn't mean he hasn't tempered his stances to get votes through Congress. That's what progressives do: achieve incremental change. Both parties do it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:21 am

Aye, I agree with that, being apolitician myself. You have to differentiate between "I would do this if I could make things like I wanted" and "I'll do this because this is the way I can make things a little better" (better being subjective).

I can't actually remember what the ratings ar based on - as in, whethe rthey are actual actions or just promises.
I know the european governments are based on actions - thats also really the only way to rate a government in a parliamentary system that means the government, by definition, do not have a majority against them, very little compromise going on oustide coalition governments.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:27 am

Nooska wrote:Aye, I agree with that, being apolitician myself. You have to differentiate between "I would do this if I could make things like I wanted" and "I'll do this because this is the way I can make things a little better" (better being subjective).

I can't actually remember what the ratings ar based on - as in, whethe rthey are actual actions or just promises.
I know the european governments are based on actions - thats also really the only way to rate a government in a parliamentary system that means the government, by definition, do not have a majority against them, very little compromise going on oustide coalition governments.


I assume you were refering to this:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2012
A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. – Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:07 am

pork barrel logrolling to their home districts


One good thing about Pork Barrel politics is that it employees people to build the pork barrel project.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:31 pm

Nooska wrote:I disagree that "almost everyone is a socialist".

I was using the term pretty loosely, I guess. I'd certainly place myself under that term, as a democratic socialist (socialist democracy is still socialist). The US tends to treat it like it's a dirty word, or at least one that only refers to the extreme left. An oversimplified version of how I'd see that chart is (and this is obviously more of a leaning than actual label):
Green - Socialist
Red - Communist (not using the strict definition, but how it's generally been seen in practice)
Purple - Libertarian (as the term seems to be used in US politics)
I can't quite think of an easy term to describe the authoritarian yet free-market Blue block (given the state of current western politics, perhaps "centrist" :P).

Funny to look at how the mainstream western politicians are mainly lumped into the blue block on the site's chart, completely opposite to our numbers.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:29 pm

i also find it humorous that as much arguing and such that goes on, we are all fairly close
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