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patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:44 am

theckhd wrote:Why would you want to convert haste to avoidance? Either you've just buffed haste more, or you're replacing the haste effect with avoidance, at which point it would be easier to just eliminate Sanctity of Battle.

I don't think there's very much leeway on SotR's duration. Reducing the duration would make it much harder to use. Increasing the duration won't happen as long as we have Sanctity of Battle. And if we lose SoB, then the duration doesn't really need to be tweaked anyway.


What I was trying to say is that haste does not give us haste. SoB just convert haste into avoidance just to make sure whatever gear we have with haste does not goes entirely to waste.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:17 am

I'm not sure that's better than just announcing that we'll lose Sanctity of Battle in 5.3 and living with it for now. If we know that SoB is going away, we won't pick up haste gear in 5.2, and we'll naturally transition without needing an awkward haste->avoidance conversion.

Though again, I don't think they actually want to get rid of SoB, otherwise they'd probably have mentioned it. It's the more obvious solution. Nerfing SotR is going one step down the chain, and there's no reason to do that unless they want to keep SoB.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:41 am

Fetzie wrote:Change the DR coefficient for paladins (don't they already have separate ones per class) so that avoidance ratings are simply worth more. Makes them automatically more useful.

They do have different coefficients per class.

Fetzie wrote:Then, change SoB to 50% of your haste, but allow spell haste to alter the cooldowns too (10% SoI, 5% raid buff). Would lessen the value of haste on gear, without making us feel like we just got "nerfed".

That seems... backwards. Nerf the SoB conversion to 50%, but then buff it by using spell haste (which is regularly 3-5x as high as melee haste). That's a net buff to haste, and will make it more valuable on gear, not less. Also remember that they switched it from spell haste to melee haste because of spell haste debuffs in PvP. They distinctly don't want it to operate on spell haste for that reason.

It would make more sense to keep it on melee haste and just set the conversion to whatever nerf level is appropriate. I.e. 80% of melee haste, 75% of melee haste, etc.

Fetzie wrote:Let Execution Sentence and Hammer of Light GCD scale with haste.

They could, but why? That wouldn't really have an appreciable effect on DPS given the long cooldowns, and it's not really a problem as-is. No sense fixing what isn't broke.

Fetzie wrote:Make Consecrate's damage ticks scale with haste and not just the cooldown of the spell so that we don't lose ticks when re-casting, or allow more than one Consecrate AoE to be active at any one time. Move the final tick to the "front" of the spell duration, so that it ticks immediately on cast and not 1-2 seconds later.

It already does scale with haste in a way. Testing on live with 8.49% melee haste (8.3-second Cons cooldown):
Code: Select all
[11:27:57.402] Theck casts Consecration
[11:27:58.690] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:27:59.376] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:00.677] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:01.585] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:02.390] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:03.590] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:04.386] Theck Consecration Training Dummy *1* (O: 4481)
[11:28:05.650] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:05.650] Theck casts Consecration
[11:28:06.383] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:07.640] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:08.378] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:09.569] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2241)
[11:28:10.492] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:11.676] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:12.483] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:13.697] Theck Consecration Training Dummy *1* (O: 4481)
[11:28:14.477] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:28:15.689] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)


8 ticks between cast #1 and cast #2, 10 ticks after cast #2. Still a total of 18. Just to check, let's try with 3 in a row:
Code: Select all
[11:29:27.484] Theck casts Consecration
[11:29:28.693] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:29.980] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:30.507] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:31.530] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:32.527] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:33.528] Theck Consecration Training Dummy *1* (O: 4481)
[11:29:34.789] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:35.638] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2241)
[11:29:35.881] Theck casts Consecration
[11:29:36.717] Theck Consecration Training Dummy *1* (O: 4482)
[11:29:37.629] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:38.717] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:39.528] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:40.836] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:41.510] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:42.861] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:43.678] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:44.780] Theck casts Consecration
[11:29:44.783] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:46.133] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:46.781] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:47.719] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:48.902] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:49.623] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:50.838] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:51.661] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:52.837] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:53.660] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)
[11:29:54.504] Theck Consecration Training Dummy 1 (O: 2240)

8 ticks, then 8 ticks, then 11 ticks. Total of 27. It seems like it's at least partially additive (though testing at higher haste values would let us confirm that with greater certainty).

We generally don't cast it on cooldown except in AoE situations, so it's unlikely that we're going to string more than 3 in a row without at least a GCD of pushback anyway. So the fact that the ticks don't scale exactly with haste isn't that important.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:16 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not sure that's better than just announcing that we'll lose Sanctity of Battle in 5.3 and living with it for now. If we know that SoB is going away, we won't pick up haste gear in 5.2, and we'll naturally transition without needing an awkward haste->avoidance conversion.

Though again, I don't think they actually want to get rid of SoB, otherwise they'd probably have mentioned it. It's the more obvious solution. Nerfing SotR is going one step down the chain, and there's no reason to do that unless they want to keep SoB.

The reason why sob would convert haste to avoidance is to soften the blow that haste would not give us haste anymore, and thus make the gearing transition from heavy haste to proper tanking gear.

I am in the camp of having no haste, reduce the power of sotr, but increase its duration - and make gc give us profs from avoidance
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:02 pm

The reason why sob would convert haste to avoidance is to soften the blow that haste would not give us haste anymore, and thus make the gearing transition from heavy haste to proper tanking gear.


Having a permanent change that tries to do that for a 3-week period is just a bit silly though. Replacing your gear in 5.2 is going to be near-instantaneous, and you have the complete side effect where Haste is STILL valuable enough that people will use it as a hedge-tradeoff if say, a piece of gear has enough Mastery to make it better to use Haste/Mastery over Dodge/Parry, AND it destroys the thing they've already said they want to preserve (the "fun" aspect of Haste). AND it has repercussions down the line because of a change made to a situation trying to become irrelevant in a short timespan.

It's a lose-lose call to do it that way.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:59 pm

Darielle wrote:
The reason why sob would convert haste to avoidance is to soften the blow that haste would not give us haste anymore, and thus make the gearing transition from heavy haste to proper tanking gear.


Having a permanent change that tries to do that for a 3-week period is just a bit silly though. Replacing your gear in 5.2 is going to be near-instantaneous, and you have the complete side effect where Haste is STILL valuable enough that people will use it as a hedge-tradeoff if say, a piece of gear has enough Mastery to make it better to use Haste/Mastery over Dodge/Parry, AND it destroys the thing they've already said they want to preserve (the "fun" aspect of Haste). AND it has repercussions down the line because of a change made to a situation trying to become irrelevant in a short timespan.

It's a lose-lose call to do it that way.


The are handing out free gear at the door? Sure, HC guilds will clear the place first week, but it still will take even them a few weeks to gear up. Other will take much much longer to gear. So gear based solutions need to take that in mind.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:18 pm

I can't help but think we blow this "re-gearing" problem way out of proportion. We can probably reforge/regem half our haste away without much of a hitch. At least T15 LFR will be useful for something besides just silly high ilvls...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:54 pm

I could reforge and regem to get rid of a bit over 3000 of my 7200 haste rating. Probably got enough non-haste gear to drop another 2k on top of that, but would lose a certain amount of stamina due to upgraded pieces.

It would be nice to know sooner than later that I need to spend DKP on certain items and can pass on others though, like that belt from the heroic doggies that I'd passed on twice before GC broke the news...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:07 pm

The are handing out free gear at the door? Sure, HC guilds will clear the place first week, but it still will take even them a few weeks to gear up. Other will take much much longer to gear. So gear based solutions need to take that in mind.


Your replacements for the slots come from:
- Bosses you kill in Normal mode.
- LFR.
- Reduced cost Valor replacements if your gear is in such a way.
- Any gear you obtain between the announcement and the patch.
- Reforging the Haste pieces and going to bat against bosses that really have never really been tank-threatening this expansion to a large degree.

There is no possible scenario where someone can really struggle as a result even if Haste was completely removed, and Blizzard is explicitly saying that they do not want to make Haste worthless anyway.

It would be nice to know sooner than later that I need to spend DKP on certain items and can pass on others though, like that belt from the heroic doggies that I'd passed on twice before GC broke the news...


Not sure why you'd be having to worry about DKP on gear that pretty much only you can use anyway. Even in a 25M running multiple tanks, all the tank pieces are like .... default. Rule no.1 of tanking has been to always hold on to one of everything, and never let anything get sharded/offspecced if you don't have it first.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:16 pm

It is more that I could use that DKP on stuff that every paladin, priest or warlock wants...although, the 4set is pretty meh anyway.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Winkle » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:26 am

I'd be so overjoyed if all those valor upgrades suddenly went to waste. Also i wouldn't be a fan of seeing my DPS drop either.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Xfighter » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:24 pm

Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.


from http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2527 ... s-part-ii/


Good to see they didn't completely kill haste, just slightly move us towards avoidance. Will be interesting to see how the dodge/parry thing sims out for stat weights.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Juugimus » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:25 pm

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 6?page=1#6

Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.



Sounds like good news.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:27 pm

Allow me a WOOT!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Juugimus wrote:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=1#6

Paladin
To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 25% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.



Sounds like good news.



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