Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:52 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I dunno, i thought holyblaze was being facetious...

I pretty much need big old "Sarcasm incoming!" signs these days. After the election and the various bullshit that people actually believed, I don't put it past anyone to hold any position, no matter how comical it seems.

I need that Fry face saying "Don't know if 'Team America: World Police' reference... Or actual belief"
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:46 pm

Holyblaze wrote:lol Klaudandus...I see what you did there. haha BAM! 8)


Wait, you were being serious?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:01 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Holyblaze wrote:lol Klaudandus...I see what you did there. haha BAM! 8)


Wait, you were being serious?

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:08 pm

after this last election, i wouldnt be surprised by what anyone believes...
might think they are fucking lunatics *cough*westboro church*cough* but it would take a lot to surprise me that there are idiots people out there that believe some of these things

for example, my mother is among those conservatives that still question Obama's birth certificate, and my grandmother is VERY opposed to even LGBT civil unions, legalized pot, and the reintroduction of wolves back into Oregon (though that one i kinda agree on her with being we now have a confirmed..as in caught in the act...livestock wolf kill)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:12 pm

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/33 ... na-johnson

Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was — and to which the president is — implacably opposed, but it is hardly “senseless.” By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:24 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/339003/president-obama-commemorates-senseless-holocaust-eliana-johnson

Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was — and to which the president is — implacably opposed, but it is hardly “senseless.” By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.


Yikes. I can't even *see* that far right.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:30 pm

Koatanga wrote:Yikes. I can't even *see* that far right.


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Say what you want about the tenets of national socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:23 am

Also National socialism, as a base is vilified to a much higher degree than it deserves - because of a link that cannot be overlooked today, though has nothing to do with teh ideology itself (Namely Hitler's megalomania and warmongering).

The ideology has some very sensible ideas, and some (very) unrealistic ideas. Neo national socialism is based almost entirely on the link to Hitler and the megalomaniacal and warmongering ideas, so that can be vilified just fine without being undeserving.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:02 am

Nooska wrote:Also National socialism, as a base is vilified to a much higher degree than it deserves - because of a link that cannot be overlooked today, though has nothing to do with teh ideology itself (Namely Hitler's megalomania and warmongering).

The ideology has some very sensible ideas, and some (very) unrealistic ideas. Neo national socialism is based almost entirely on the link to Hitler and the megalomaniacal and warmongering ideas, so that can be vilified just fine without being undeserving.
I "think" (in quotes because it's kind of hard to say, that piece is very poorly written and I'm not sure I'm right about the intent) that was the point that the author was getting too. That Nazism wasn't "senseless" it was a well thought out theory of government that persuaded many people because of its ideals, some of which are in fact noble. That that violent result of it is a risk with any such concentration of power, particularly when the good of the many is put above individual's rights and liberties.

It came off as if the author was trying to support Nazism, which was likely the exact opposite of her intent, since that's a far left approach to governing. The article's premise was kind of stupid though, Obama wasn't using "senseless" in the literal manner, it's a common cliche.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:14 am

I can understand unification of all germans and land ... for the sustenance of our people considering the treaty of Versailles who snipped of some majority german lands (yeah polish country, too), throwing votes in the trash, in some areas where the population actually wanted to remain in Germany but the victors wanted that piece of land, etc. Versailles was a written invitation for round 2. the french should have known better. They were so pissed off that Germany took Alsace-Lorraine after the war of 1870. Big mistake on Germany´s side. And AFAIK they promised before the surrender to honor Wilson´s plan for peace, instead of grab your own personal chunk of Germany, now.

Also Prussia was divided in two parts, probably annoyed quite a few people but I can understand Poland wasn´t keen on returning their sea access.

So the whole thing could have been avoided probably if they just let the parts which were majority polish and other minority areas secede if they want and set the reparation payments at a lower sum.

The whole unification of all Germans was a big thing in the 19th century when Germany was still divided in small nation states, till 1870.

So yeah I can see how you can build a reasonable platform as a political party in Post WW1 Germany out of the first two claims. Perhaps it could have worked in some areas without coming to blows and starting another war. Not that I defend the NSDASP. They had a few things that appealed to the german public, otherwise they wouldn´t have been elected. "We have a megalomaniac leader who does pretty speeches, hate jews and everone else who isn´t german and like big shows with torches and flags" won´t get you far. Even if you are keen on streetfights and intimidating the other people to submit.

Fine let´s put these two under reasonable points in light of the treaty of Versailles and the whole situation. France wasn´t happy that Germany took of with Alsace-Lorraine, too. but she listeded the "assertion that no Jew can be member of the race" under the non-senseless points? Wow, at least she is honest that she is a racist nutjob glorifying nazism. :roll:
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:34 am

Well, its not like the UK was the only one who knew how to take land with the cunning use of flags.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:28 am

Dantriges wrote:but she listeded the "assertion that no Jew can be member of the race" under the non-senseless points? Wow, at least she is honest that she is a racist nutjob glorifying nazism. :roll:
Again, I could be wrong, but I think you are missing her meaning. I don't think she is defending that position, she's saying it wasn't senseless in the way that it was purposeful and based on their logic. As opposed to it being senseless because it's stupid, which is an alternate definition.

I just think she's trying to hi-light the risks with that style of government. That calling it senseless actually attempts to make the holocaust seem less evil than it really was. Because if it was the senseless acts of a deranged psychopathic leader, then it's not a reflection of anything more than that. She's saying that the Nazi party didn't stump on notions of committing atrocities, but rather that they were the actions of leaders trying to hold to a set of ideals that the populace to a large degree bought into. That these atrocities weren't senseless, they were a byproduct of that sort of belief system which is a danger that people should heed today.

If my interpretation is correct, it's still a stupid article because I don't think anyone believes that Obama was trying to downplay the holocaust, and it's very poorly written. It seems that many people took her words as a defense of nazism and that's totally the author's fault. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and it was a defense of nazism, but that seems illogical given the broader context.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:55 am

I agree with Fridmarr. It wasn't really senseless, because the genocide had a purpose, at least based on their logic -- still very poorly written and comes as incredibly off.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:11 am

I think I just agree with you on the point that the article was written very badly. Perhaps or probably she didn´t defend nazism but if you publish your thoughts to a wider audience you should be more careful with your words, especially if they can be mistaken easily for being racist comments.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:32 am

Dantriges wrote:I think I just agree with you on the point that the article was written very badly. Perhaps or probably she didn´t defend nazism but if you publish your thoughts to a wider audience you should be more careful with your words, especially if they can be mistaken easily for being racist comments.

Especially given how this will play out, which some editor there should have realized. Conservatives will now be labeled forever as pro Nazi jew haters. Of course that's absurd given that nazism is pretty polar opposite to conservatism, but it will be considered a given and unchallengable. Just add it to the long list of other groups conservatives "hate"... :roll:
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:59 am

The american right wing doesn't really have much credibility on freedom issues, as long as it contains social conservatives.

In the end, the right wants freedom on some issues, and not on others, and the same is true of the left.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:09 pm

Seems they should exercise their freedom of speech a bit more carefully.

You can say what you want but we reserve the right to think of you as a total nutjob afterwards. :D
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:01 am

Fridmarr wrote:Of course that's absurd given that nazism is pretty polar opposite to conservatism, but it will be considered a given and unchallengable.


That's an exaggeration. Some elements of nazism is directly opposed to current US conservatism ("socialism as being based upon a commitment of an individual to a community"). Some values are not conservative values but are still values that are right-wing ("domination of society by people deemed racially superior, while purging society of people declared inferior, who were said to be a threat to national survival", nationalism). Some values they shared with current conservatives ("Nazism favoured private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of a national solidarity that would transcend class differences.") Hitler claimed that Nazism was neither right-wing nor left-wing, and it seems to me to be correct.

That you like to think of conservatism as an ideology of Freedom for everybody does not make it true.

(Quotes from Wikipedia).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:45 am

It just reminds me of the saying; Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you are obligated to speak (loosely translated) - or better "the right to speak is not a duty to speak"
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:26 am

"My right to wave my fist around stops at the other guy's nose." - popular
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:01 am

Paxen wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Of course that's absurd given that nazism is pretty polar opposite to conservatism, but it will be considered a given and unchallengable.


That's an exaggeration. Some elements of nazism is directly opposed to current US conservatism ("socialism as being based upon a commitment of an individual to a community"). Some values are not conservative values but are still values that are right-wing ("domination of society by people deemed racially superior, while purging society of people declared inferior, who were said to be a threat to national survival", nationalism). Some values they shared with current conservatives ("Nazism favoured private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of a national solidarity that would transcend class differences.") Hitler claimed that Nazism was neither right-wing nor left-wing, and it seems to me to be correct.

That you like to think of conservatism as an ideology of Freedom for everybody does not make it true.

(Quotes from Wikipedia).
Edited:
Actually rereading your post, you make my point for me. There's not much there that would be considered conservative. Right wing...sure, but not conservative as you point out. So, I don't think my comment is at all an exaggeration, and since I didn't say right wing, you seem to be in agreement. Just be consistent with that separation of right wing and conservative.

That said, the core tenets of nazism are pretty consistently left. It's not all left, but very little is conservative as even you point out.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:47 pm

Fridmarr has a different definition of "Conservative" than every single other Conservative I have ever met.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:36 pm

Brekkie wrote:Fridmarr has a different definition of "Conservative" than every single other Conservative I have ever met.


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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:00 pm

Brekkie wrote:Fridmarr has a different definition of "Conservative" than every single other Conservative I have ever met.


Yup.

Another element that is a very conservative trait is the focus on women staying home and bearing/rearing children. Nazi Germany eventually employed female workers in their factories, but that's only years into the war when they were forced to do it by the realities of war.

Contrast that to the almost aggressive equality endorsed by communists starting with Lenin (of course, as with many other things it was undermined by the endemic hypocracy in the USSR - women were the equals of men when working, but they still did the majority of work in the household and were, with a few exceptions excluded from positions of power).

Fridmarr seems to think that Conservatism is the ideology of personal freedom - it's not, Liberalism (US: Libertarianism) is. Conservatism is concerned with preventing rapid changes and the defense of existing privileges.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:41 pm

Classical Liberalism is closest to Libertarianism, yes, but Conservatism still bases its tennets and morals on the rights of the individual. Both are largely the same in terms of fiscal policy, save that the Republican party has had to conform to Progressivism and defend the social safety net. Old people aren't going to vote for people who take away Social Security, etc.

Where they differ on social issues is based largely on the concept of which individual is being protected. Pro-life Conservatives believe in protecting the rights of the baby/fetus/unborn as life is the first and foremost important component of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Libertarians such as myself view the rights of the mother, an existing citizen, as holding precedent.

Conservatism IS about avoiding rapid change, which is why today it is about personal freedom. With the advent of the progressive movement under TR and Wilson, and much moreso under FDR, we see the implementation of big government as the solution, to make it easier for citizens. Modern conservatism when implemented holds that the every expanding, unfinanced government teat must be reined in, and that individual choice and freedoms should prevail over an expansive federal government.
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