patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:46 pm

Had not seen that one. I like it, and semi sort of retract my statement. I guess looking at the weapon left me feeling overwhelmed. The sword looks good, with it's hit / mastery. Does the 500str attract tanks? it looks to be about .5% parry before DR, assuming that parry gained from STR is affected by DR (At times I feel utterly clueless trying to make sense of stats and the changes)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:00 pm

Not sure what you really mean with that. It's 500 Strength that you can only equip in a Sha-Touched weapon and is the only thing you can equip in a Sha-Touched socket, so it's not a question of what's attractive, it's basically a free 500 Str (unless you buy an extra).

There won't be new Sha-Touched weapons in 5.2, so you'll replace yours at some point in the line anyway (especially if it's 496 or 483 - 509 might last until Heroic).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:19 pm

Right. it's 500 free Strength, but why would you ever (as long as there is another Str user) give it to a tank?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=86987
Is the same itemization, has a blue socket with mastery bonus. It's not lagging behind enough that your tank is ever going to care from a threat perspective.

So why give the Sha to a Tank? Sure, the 500 str gives ~.5% Parry before DR, but that's not a "make or break" for the tank.

Or the tank could go with Elegion the fanged Crescent. Which again, is well itemized for a tank (that cares about hitting? Does anyone not care about hitting anymore?) and leaves them more flexibility in the other gear.

I guess I don't see where giving the tank the sword with the slot for the 500 str gem is "attractive" for a raid group that would have a DPSer who would use it is the "best" idea. It leaves me wondering why there wasn't a more tanky gem.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:20 pm

well the gems are a personal quest and weapons drop more often than once on occasion.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:29 pm

Flex wrote:well the gems are a personal quest and weapons drop more often than once on occasion.


Right. I understand the gems are a personal quest. And I udnerstand that the weapons drop more than once. They drop from 1 boss in Heart of Fear, and 2 bosses in Terrace of Endless Spring, and they have a chance to drop on all difficulties.

But for a minute, lets say Theck's Guild kills the Heroic guy who drops the 1h'd Str Sword and it drops.

What is the benefit of giving it to theck over giving it to the fury warrior / DW Dk?

Sure, there are things like DKP, EP/GP, etc... that could mean that Theck ends up with it anyway. But, from a "Best use of the Loot", what is the advantage giving it to the tank? There is no tank gem, it's just 500 str, and some Parry. A little more DPS, and a little more avoidance.

I guess I just don't understand why they didn't make a tank gem. Stam, or something. It just doesn't seem like (even with tanks caring about hitting and tank DPS being non trivial) the "best use" for the item, unless everyone else has the item that could use it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Gab » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:39 pm

Shoju wrote: unless everyone else has the item that could use it.


Why give tanks ANYTHING that would be an upgrade for a DPS? It's the same principle. 509 SoSS vs 509 Kilrak both fully gemmed. Kilrak gives you 580 str and 40 hit at the cost of 20 mastery. It's attractive 'cause it's better than any other alternative? If you eventually get one then cool, if not oh well you're only missing out on a little extra strength vs SoSS.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:57 pm

Gab wrote:
Shoju wrote: unless everyone else has the item that could use it.


Why give tanks ANYTHING that would be an upgrade for a DPS? It's the same principle. 509 SoSS vs 509 Kilrak both fully gemmed. Kilrak gives you 580 str and 40 hit at the cost of 20 mastery. It's attractive 'cause it's better than any other alternative? If you eventually get one then cool, if not oh well you're only missing out on a little extra strength vs SoSS.


Which is why, there has been Tank Gear, and why Blizzard is currently unhappy with Paladins and Haste.

My point was simply, that the Sha Touched Gems leave something to be desired fro a tank perspective in the current tier.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Gab » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:02 pm

Shoju wrote:Which is why, there has been Tank Gear, and why Blizzard is currently unhappy with Paladins and Haste.

My point was simply, that the Sha Touched Gems leave something to be desired fro a tank perspective in the current tier.


The whole haste/str gear is totally unrelated unless you are trying to argue there should be an avoidance weapon.

Would it be any different if there were a Sha stam gem? Weapons would still go to DPS first.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:14 pm

Gab wrote:
Shoju wrote:Which is why, there has been Tank Gear, and why Blizzard is currently unhappy with Paladins and Haste.

My point was simply, that the Sha Touched Gems leave something to be desired fro a tank perspective in the current tier.


The whole haste/str gear is totally unrelated unless you are trying to argue there should be an avoidance weapon.

Would it be any different if there were a Sha stam gem? Weapons would still go to DPS first.


NO. I'm not saying that there should be an avoidance weapon. i'm saying that Blizzard doesn't like DPS plate going to tanks, so they have Tank Gear for Tanks. They currently are unhappy that Paladins are eyeing DPS plate for tanking because of the Haste Conundrum.

It would be different with a Sha Stam Gem. It would feel like it was designed to include tanks. That's all I'm saying. It seems like an oversight to not have a "tanky" gem.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:10 pm

LFR stacking buff for every wipe.

wat.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:14 pm

Sagara wrote:LFR stacking buff for every wipe.

wat.


I'm sure it is an attempt to stop people from bailing after a wipe or two on a boss making all raid finders be partials making people bitch about only wanting fresh runs and so on.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:26 pm

NO. I'm not saying that there should be an avoidance weapon. i'm saying that Blizzard doesn't like DPS plate going to tanks, so they have Tank Gear for Tanks. They currently are unhappy that Paladins are eyeing DPS plate for tanking because of the Haste Conundrum.


That's now why they're unhappy with Haste. They're unhappy because the game right now isn't designed around that - which causes odd quirks like LFR having people queue Ret to get that ideal piece, or Paladins having access to use the Ret 2-pc if they have 2 ideal slots, etc. If it was just a case where Paladins in guilds used stuff with Haste, that factor doesn't exist.

Is the same itemization, has a blue socket with mastery bonus. It's not lagging behind enough that your tank is ever going to care from a threat perspective.

So why give the Sha to a Tank? Sure, the 500 str gives ~.5% Parry before DR, but that's not a "make or break" for the tank.


Your comparison is slightly off. Remember, at this point you probably don't just have the Sha gem, you have a Prismatic socket that can be put into a Sha weapon as well, etc.

What you're talking about doesn't really relate. Giving weapons to a tank over someone else is not a benefit if you're min/maxing the dps benefit, since for a long long time our survivability with the gear that we naturally get is more than enough, so fuelling gear into a tank is pointless. Even if they put in a tankkiller that incentivises funnelling gear into the tank, it wouldn't affect this type of situation because a weapon off Sha is off the last boss in the tier anyway.

It would be different with a Sha Stam Gem. It would feel like it was designed to include tanks. That's all I'm saying. It seems like an oversight to not have a "tanky" gem.


Considering they've been on a definite kick to have us not view Strength as a wasted stat for like ... 2 expansions now, and until this expansion Bears actually valued Agility, and specifically in this expansion they ramped the benefit from Strength hard to roughly match that?
Not really.
At best, you can argue it's pushing for a pointless goal or something because we've never really been all that crazy about Avoidance.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:27 pm

Reading the blue post: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2524 ... id-finder/

...it almost sounds like they may use this as a balancer for not making LFR utterly trivial. Interesting.

Blizzard doesn't like DPS plate going to tanks, so they have Tank Gear for Tanks


Maybe it's just the construction of the sentence but this doesn't make sense to me, if you're positing a problem->solution.

Blizz has always had problems itemizing things for tanks. No Dalaran ring, no Halloween ring, and so on. As far as the Sha gem goes, I think it kind of goes back to its affect on raid power. Boosting one-of-eighteen/five-six players (DPS) of your raid with an item is very different from boosting one-of-two (tanks). It's probably why there's never been a tank legendary and why there probably never will be.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:38 pm

Paladin
- We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ge=68#1345
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:54 am

Fetzie wrote:Retribution PvP buffs, do my eyes deceive me?

Probably the person who said that already got fired! :twisted:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:22 am

Flex wrote:
Sagara wrote:LFR stacking buff for every wipe.

wat.


I'm sure it is an attempt to stop people from bailing after a wipe or two on a boss making all raid finders be partials making people bitch about only wanting fresh runs and so on.


I kinda feel like 100% of the wipes I've had in LFR have been due to failure to obey mechanics. I'm not really sure this will help with that, though I may stick out more than one just in case the heals/dps increase is enough to make up for people who can't get off the floor in elegon, can't move bosses properly, can't run towards Lei Shei, can't kill adds, can't be arsed to move on Garalon, think the big purple spot is made of candy, etc. etc.

What am I saying, I'll probably bail then too.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:40 am

Having more HP / DPS will also just allow the failing raid group to ignore the mechanics that are killing them eventually.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:45 am

When you can kill garalon with only half the raid doing anything, and then they aren't attacking legs from inside the blue circles, who cares about mechanics? :D
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:09 am

Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:28 am

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?


There have been trouble on four bosses this tier if memory serves - Elegon, Garalon, Amber Shaper and Tsulong. The two dragons got solved when players learned what to do. So, 12,5% of the time, we can ignore the mechanics 50% of the time. The other 12,5% percent of the time, we can ignore it 75% of the time. The rest of the time, we can ignore it 90% of the time.

Considering a raid contains 75% of shitheads and the raid "leader" is a 14-year old screaming at how someone or other sucks, how often can a player ignore mechanics on average?

EDIT: extra credit question: whom should be blamed when the raid fails? Detail your answer (3 lines of more)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:31 am

That's too many percentages for my small brain to handle this early in the morning.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:40 am

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sampling bias. When I run LFR on Theck, I usually do so with some friends. As a result, we almost never wipe, because we have both the know-how and the brute force (in terms of raw character power / DPS / HPS / etc.) to make sure we kill stuff efficiently. Based on my limited sample, nobody ever wipes in LFR!

However, take a random LFR that doesn't get lucky enough to have any hard-mode raiders in it. The average DPS will be much, much lower - I'm sure I could find cases where the difference is 50% or more (avg ilvl of 463 vs. 490 is about a 25% difference all by itself, then account for the fact that the 463-geared players are not performing at 100% of potential). All of the sudden, mechanics that could be ignored before can't.

I think that's the purpose of this buff. Especially considering that after 5.2, most raiding guilds won't go back to do LFR ToES/HoF/MSV, because they'll run the new LFRs instead. That makes the pool of people going into the earlier LFRs much shallower, and biased towards non-raiders and poorly-geared alts. LFR ToES/HoF/MSV is likely to get a LOT worse once 5.2 hits. This buff will help make up for that in groups that are struggling.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:41 am

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?


Sagara wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?


There have been trouble on four bosses this tier if memory serves - Elegon, Garalon, Amber Shaper and Tsulong. The two dragons got solved when players learned what to do. So, 12,5% of the time, we can ignore the mechanics 50% of the time. The other 12,5% percent of the time, we can ignore it 75% of the time. The rest of the time, we can ignore it 90% of the time.

Considering a raid contains 75% of shitheads and the raid "leader" is a 14-year old screaming at how someone or other sucks, how often can a player ignore mechanics on average?


I'd go further than that. I've seen wipes (I've rolled as tank and DPS in all of the LFRs, at various times) at essentially every boss (heck, even trash) *but* the following:
Stone guard
Feng
Spiritbinder
Grand Vizier (strangely enough...)
Blade Lord (also, strangely enough)
Wind Lord
Protectors
Sha of Fear

On the MSV bosses, there are plenty of ways for groups to make up for not doing it 'right'. I can't explain why I haven't seen wipes on the 2 HoF bosses... since staying out of the bad seems to be how Garalon gets people. Protectors is straight-forward for even the most clueless of DPS/tanks (burn the things/aggro the things!) and Sha seems to not really give much of a choice in what you *need* to do (since it sends you to the platforms and you have to click to get back).

YMMV.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:45 am

theckhd wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sampling bias. When I run LFR on Theck, I usually do so with some friends. As a result, we almost never wipe, because we have both the know-how and the brute force (in terms of raw character power / DPS / HPS / etc.) to make sure we kill stuff efficiently. Based on my limited sample, nobody ever wipes in LFR!

However, take a random LFR that doesn't get lucky enough to have any hard-mode raiders in it. The average DPS will be much, much lower - I'm sure I could find cases where the difference is 50% or more (avg ilvl of 463 vs. 490 is about a 25% difference all by itself, then account for the fact that the 463-geared players are not performing at 100% of potential). All of the sudden, mechanics that could be ignored before can't.

I think that's the purpose of this buff. Especially considering that after 5.2, most raiding guilds won't go back to do LFR ToES/HoF/MSV, because they'll run the new LFRs instead. That makes the pool of people going into the earlier LFRs much shallower, and biased towards non-raiders and poorly-geared alts. LFR ToES/HoF/MSV is likely to get a LOT worse once 5.2 hits. This buff will help make up for that in groups that are struggling.


Though I kinda wonder why they just didn't go with a 'Luck of the draw' type buff to start (yeah, I know it wouldn't help the post-wipe drops, but I'm not sure this will either), rather than a post-wipe buff. This seems to have the potential for meaning those times where 2-3 players survive result in the buff never happening, even if the group could use it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:50 am

Lemme see... I've seen wipes on

* Spirit Kings: a couple (typically, Meng's madness during his Coward phase)
* Elegon: still happens, but fairly rare (early on, when you suddenly saw 10+ nameplates go grey on Grid)
* WotE: a couple (tank going belly up, there's often a DPS that's freeloading on the boss that suddenly gets tank-promoted)
* Garalon: haven't seen it happen recently (There was this fun situation where we were let with 8 players at 50% and still pulled it)
* Wind Lord: Still happens! (Tank death because no CC and no dispell makes adds go WAAAAAAAARGH!)
* Amber Shaper: a couple (Haven't seen one recently, actually)
* Tsulong: enrage issues (because healers didn't know about Day Phase)
* Lei Shi: tank shenanigans (personal record: 47 stacks)
* Sha of fear: a couple (new tank not taunting on Cackle)

But even when going on my own as DPS, wipes on anything besides Wind Lord and Lei shi are rare to the extreme.
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