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patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:22 am

Flex wrote:
Sagara wrote:LFR stacking buff for every wipe.

wat.


I'm sure it is an attempt to stop people from bailing after a wipe or two on a boss making all raid finders be partials making people bitch about only wanting fresh runs and so on.


I kinda feel like 100% of the wipes I've had in LFR have been due to failure to obey mechanics. I'm not really sure this will help with that, though I may stick out more than one just in case the heals/dps increase is enough to make up for people who can't get off the floor in elegon, can't move bosses properly, can't run towards Lei Shei, can't kill adds, can't be arsed to move on Garalon, think the big purple spot is made of candy, etc. etc.

What am I saying, I'll probably bail then too.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:40 am

Having more HP / DPS will also just allow the failing raid group to ignore the mechanics that are killing them eventually.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:45 am

When you can kill garalon with only half the raid doing anything, and then they aren't attacking legs from inside the blue circles, who cares about mechanics? :D
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:09 am

Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:28 am

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?


There have been trouble on four bosses this tier if memory serves - Elegon, Garalon, Amber Shaper and Tsulong. The two dragons got solved when players learned what to do. So, 12,5% of the time, we can ignore the mechanics 50% of the time. The other 12,5% percent of the time, we can ignore it 75% of the time. The rest of the time, we can ignore it 90% of the time.

Considering a raid contains 75% of shitheads and the raid "leader" is a 14-year old screaming at how someone or other sucks, how often can a player ignore mechanics on average?

EDIT: extra credit question: whom should be blamed when the raid fails? Detail your answer (3 lines of more)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:31 am

That's too many percentages for my small brain to handle this early in the morning.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:40 am

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sampling bias. When I run LFR on Theck, I usually do so with some friends. As a result, we almost never wipe, because we have both the know-how and the brute force (in terms of raw character power / DPS / HPS / etc.) to make sure we kill stuff efficiently. Based on my limited sample, nobody ever wipes in LFR!

However, take a random LFR that doesn't get lucky enough to have any hard-mode raiders in it. The average DPS will be much, much lower - I'm sure I could find cases where the difference is 50% or more (avg ilvl of 463 vs. 490 is about a 25% difference all by itself, then account for the fact that the 463-geared players are not performing at 100% of potential). All of the sudden, mechanics that could be ignored before can't.

I think that's the purpose of this buff. Especially considering that after 5.2, most raiding guilds won't go back to do LFR ToES/HoF/MSV, because they'll run the new LFRs instead. That makes the pool of people going into the earlier LFRs much shallower, and biased towards non-raiders and poorly-geared alts. LFR ToES/HoF/MSV is likely to get a LOT worse once 5.2 hits. This buff will help make up for that in groups that are struggling.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:41 am

Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?


Sagara wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?


There have been trouble on four bosses this tier if memory serves - Elegon, Garalon, Amber Shaper and Tsulong. The two dragons got solved when players learned what to do. So, 12,5% of the time, we can ignore the mechanics 50% of the time. The other 12,5% percent of the time, we can ignore it 75% of the time. The rest of the time, we can ignore it 90% of the time.

Considering a raid contains 75% of shitheads and the raid "leader" is a 14-year old screaming at how someone or other sucks, how often can a player ignore mechanics on average?


I'd go further than that. I've seen wipes (I've rolled as tank and DPS in all of the LFRs, at various times) at essentially every boss (heck, even trash) *but* the following:
Stone guard
Feng
Spiritbinder
Grand Vizier (strangely enough...)
Blade Lord (also, strangely enough)
Wind Lord
Protectors
Sha of Fear

On the MSV bosses, there are plenty of ways for groups to make up for not doing it 'right'. I can't explain why I haven't seen wipes on the 2 HoF bosses... since staying out of the bad seems to be how Garalon gets people. Protectors is straight-forward for even the most clueless of DPS/tanks (burn the things/aggro the things!) and Sha seems to not really give much of a choice in what you *need* to do (since it sends you to the platforms and you have to click to get back).

YMMV.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:45 am

theckhd wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Wouldn't that imply that LFR mechanics can't be ignored 90% of the time?

Sampling bias. When I run LFR on Theck, I usually do so with some friends. As a result, we almost never wipe, because we have both the know-how and the brute force (in terms of raw character power / DPS / HPS / etc.) to make sure we kill stuff efficiently. Based on my limited sample, nobody ever wipes in LFR!

However, take a random LFR that doesn't get lucky enough to have any hard-mode raiders in it. The average DPS will be much, much lower - I'm sure I could find cases where the difference is 50% or more (avg ilvl of 463 vs. 490 is about a 25% difference all by itself, then account for the fact that the 463-geared players are not performing at 100% of potential). All of the sudden, mechanics that could be ignored before can't.

I think that's the purpose of this buff. Especially considering that after 5.2, most raiding guilds won't go back to do LFR ToES/HoF/MSV, because they'll run the new LFRs instead. That makes the pool of people going into the earlier LFRs much shallower, and biased towards non-raiders and poorly-geared alts. LFR ToES/HoF/MSV is likely to get a LOT worse once 5.2 hits. This buff will help make up for that in groups that are struggling.


Though I kinda wonder why they just didn't go with a 'Luck of the draw' type buff to start (yeah, I know it wouldn't help the post-wipe drops, but I'm not sure this will either), rather than a post-wipe buff. This seems to have the potential for meaning those times where 2-3 players survive result in the buff never happening, even if the group could use it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:50 am

Lemme see... I've seen wipes on

* Spirit Kings: a couple (typically, Meng's madness during his Coward phase)
* Elegon: still happens, but fairly rare (early on, when you suddenly saw 10+ nameplates go grey on Grid)
* WotE: a couple (tank going belly up, there's often a DPS that's freeloading on the boss that suddenly gets tank-promoted)
* Garalon: haven't seen it happen recently (There was this fun situation where we were let with 8 players at 50% and still pulled it)
* Wind Lord: Still happens! (Tank death because no CC and no dispell makes adds go WAAAAAAAARGH!)
* Amber Shaper: a couple (Haven't seen one recently, actually)
* Tsulong: enrage issues (because healers didn't know about Day Phase)
* Lei Shi: tank shenanigans (personal record: 47 stacks)
* Sha of fear: a couple (new tank not taunting on Cackle)

But even when going on my own as DPS, wipes on anything besides Wind Lord and Lei shi are rare to the extreme.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:57 am

* Tsulong: enrage issues (because healers didn't know about Day Phase)

Didn't they remove Tsu-long's berserk timer?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:01 am

Don't know- I haven't seen tsulong go beyond his third night phase in LFR (and if I remember right, he enrages after the third Day phase instead of the second on LFR)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby twinkfist » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:36 am

i still go to groups that wipe on lfr. i mean, it's amazing on the bosses in TOES...i can't even describe it. windlord i wipe every week because no one uses the spears on the wall and the tanks want to pull everything. yeah, i'm doing 400dps...yeah, i'm running back up the steps after dying.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:02 am

Fetzie wrote:
Paladin
- We agree that Retribution does not offer enough benefits to an Arena or Battleground team beyond just taking a Holy paladin. We are going to try a change where Hand of Sacrifice also dispels all harmful magic effects on the target for Ret only.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ge=68#1345
Retribution PvP buffs, do my eyes deceive me?

Just think about it and you'll see that..

*spoiler*






Not enough benefit compared to holy paladins=>let's give them something a holy paladin has with 8s cd but with 2(+clemency) minutes cd

I.e: pretty much useless when you realize that
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby oldboyz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:17 am

if Blizz want to make more sexy the pure avoidance stats and wroc havoc our current tanking priority :
successfull parry --> 5 sec strengh buff
successfull dodge --> 10sec haste bonus
successfull dodge/parry/block --> "advantage bonus" (+hit +expertise)
:idea:


PS.
promise of several night figuring how to modelize&optimise it! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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