patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:03 am

Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.


So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:14 am

Klaudandus wrote:its effectiveness is proportional to the number of targets you're tanking and also affected by the lvl of your target, as a boss is less likely to be dodged/parried

if no changes are done to haste and straight go with GC coming from avoidance, it will do nothing to change our love Haste...

if changes are done to haste, we will just likely switch to straight mastery... whatever gc procs we get from avoidance will be a bonus, but not something we will likely go out of our way to seek... and dodge/parry pieces would still be insta-shards

that's the way I see it.


Mostly good points! I'll keep the first for last, cause this one is a bit more complicated.

But Haste has to change. That, or we need a new paradigm where haste becomes a "tank stat". In the extreme scenario of SoB being removed, that means mastery pulls forward, behind Hit/Expertise, but still before Avoidance. If we consider GC's comments, I'm going on a limb and saying that's "enough" for him right now.

Now, if they really want us to accept avoidance (and remember, they never said they wanted avoidance to be awesome, just "lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry"), avoidance being linked to GC (and thus HoPo generation) could "bait" us. We'd probably stack Mastery anyway, but Mastery/avoidance pieces would be more tolerable, especially at high ilvls, where capping exp/hit becomes less of a burden.

NOW, I can understand why the random aspect of avoidance-activated GC would be annoying, but it's already random to a point. In fact, such a change to avoidance would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.


Fetzie wrote:So instead of taking hit/expertise/mastery/haste gear, and reforging the mastery into haste and accuracy, we'd be taking the same gear, but just reforging the haste into mastery and accuracy instead?


More like, we focus on exp/hit/mastery, and when exp/hit is capped, whatever is available.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:18 am

would pretty much make AS a ranged Revenge.


A ranged Revenge that hits three targets and silences/interrupts the primary target :)

So more like "revenge, with gag order attached, with a 40 yd range that hits three targets". when AoE tanking it would be proccing all the damn time (could solve a bit of our snap aggro problem too now I think about it).
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:21 am

Actually, Revenge already hits three targets (if Wowhead is to be believed)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:28 am

Yeah, they baked the old Revenge glyph into the ability with MoP.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:47 am

Shoju wrote:
Mannstein wrote:
Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?



Uh.... No. that's not quite how it works. It's not doubling your hit points.
1 more Mastery on a Blood Specc'd DK is more damage mitigation on a hit, guaranteed. I knew that if I increased my mastery by 1 it would increase my blood shield by a set amount, which would decrease the damage I took from a hit. Guaranteed. no guess work. That's why Armor was such a good stat when you could get pieces with bonus armor. It was always there. It always reduced the damage. It was a constant.

Avoidance is a % chance to not be hit. It could give allow you to miss that swing from the boss, or it could fail you, and you still get hit. You could also get really unlucky and have avoidance fail you, multiple times, in a row. It's unlikely, but it could happen. For me, Avoidance was a "take what you get, but don't gear for it."

It's part of what attracted me to the DK when I quit my paladin. The Dk has/d more control over their survival. i'm unsure how the current active mitigation models are working out for the other classes, so I can't speak to how well they are performing. I can just say that I felt more in control with my DK than I did my paladin.


Sorry, it seems that i didn't make myself clear. Let me try to explain my point of view:
What are the issues with a avoidance tank?
Even if a avoidance tank in practice takes less damage that a Mitigation tank... there is the issue of spike damage or "randominess" of heal that translates to "X Tank is harder to heal".
So if you try to go back to a "avoidance matters" model you still have issues where the tank can get killed thru a unluck string of hits.

What i would propose is to increase the %stamina bonus of tanks so that a tank have a bigger pool to soak unlucky hits... That way you could challenge tanks (reactive CD's could be used jsut to give the healer some breathing room) and challenge healers to be more reactive on the tank but for that you need to make healer's mana important, aka the boss must do enough DPS that a healer HPS/manapool can't handle on the long run if not managed well.

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:22 am

After seeing the data in Cata as Dk's wavered between "Avoidance Vs Mitigation" and Which one is better, I just dont see how Avoidance tanking works as a sustainable model. Even with a higher health pool, it boils down to a "chance" to not take any damage, and taking random spikes, Vs Actively Mitigating the damage that you do take.

Because if you go to the higher health pool, you get back to the problem you had before in PvP, where tanks become the unkillable machine.

Honestly, I would rather tank without avoidance, with higher armor, and mitigation mechanics as opposed to avoidance.


I was talking with a friend last night about this, and then someone on here made a comment, and I realized what I would do. The current tank gearing system just... doesn't work for me. There is no Tanking Leather, which means that two of the Tanking Classes aren't itemizing based on Tanking Stats anyway, while the other tanks are.

Someone said make Plate Parry, and Leather Dodge.

I'd probably go a little further than that. Keep the 5% dodge / Parry that people have currently. Remove Tanking Stats from the game. They've proven that they don't need it to itemize two tanks. Well, that just leaves Plate Tanks tanks.

They already cranked up the Str to Parry Conversion this tier as compensation for some other change that they made. Great. Keep that. Bears (and I'm assuming Drunks) get a fair amount of dodge from Agility. The Plate Tanks would get a fair amount of Parry from Str. They would be locked in at low Parry/Dodge rates anyway, but who cares?

Your base stats give you the avoidance. And then you can reforge to Defensive stats as needed / desired.

It eliminates loot that is designed in the game for 3 talent trees. Plate Tanking gear, and Tanking rings / necklaces and "true" tanking weapons (do they exist in Mop?). You can leave tanking trinkets as is, since they are used by all four of the tanking classes universally. that's a little better.

You can still give "tanking Tier sets" if you want, but by eliminating tank loot from vendors and drop tables, you can streamline gearing, homogenize a little, and eliminate these situations where some stat that isn't intended to be a tanking stat (Haste, or even in the way back times agility for plate) ends up being a mediocre to good tanking stat.

It gives you more room to move and play with the numbers, and come up with more active mitigation. I wont lie, Maybe I feel this way because I like the idea of active mitigation more than what we had when I started playing the game. The evolution from getting "Block Capped" in TBC, to the Active Mitigation model that I used on my Death Knight in Cata was a good process.

They've now brought active mitigation to the masses. Going one step further and removing the tank stats (From itemization only. Like I said, I think leaving them as a reforge is a good idea) that are only used by plate tanks simply streamlines the process.

People have said that Homogenization is bad, and Blizzard has countered with "some Homogenization is good". I would put this in the "Good" category.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:38 am

Great, now we just need to convince GC of the concept.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:48 am

I think he's considering the concept already - remember that blog about tank using dps stats back in Cata?
But that's a pretty tall order we're talking about here - more something for the next x-pack, like how Defense rating went belly up in the pre-Cata patch, and spellpower tank weapons died in pre-LK.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:50 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?

The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

  • A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
  • A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
  • A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:59 am

A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.

---> make more gear

A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.

---> put desirable stats on tier gear or make the bonuses powerful enough to make the stats on the item irrelevant

A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

---> make 2set bonuses spec specific
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:19 am

Fetzie wrote:A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.

---> make more gear


Now the raid with a Druid/Monk tank has their plate dps gear up faster than their cloth/leather.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:33 am

You don't need to change the gear distribution at all. Just replace existing tank plate drops with dps plate drops. Though I guess it leaves Shields as the odd item out.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:35 am

What? How does replacing tank plate drops with dps plate drops help warrior or dk tanks? GC's referring to the current situation of prot paladins wanting dps dk/paladin gear.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:39 am

The situation isn't hard to solve considering Warriors already have a solution that can be adapted to Paladins.
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