patch 5.2 ?

[Darielle]

7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?

Nitpick:
Base miss is 3%, and suppression reduces it to 0 against bosses, so it can effectively be ignored.

So wait.... Tank warriors get no benefit from Haste? What about Bears and Drunks?

Both Bears and Monks value Haste highly. Right now, pure Crit is the stacking point for Bears, but Haste is pretty much right up there, and on 25H bosses can be worth it to stack Haste over Crit. Haste will also scale naturally stronger to the point that it might be the thing that is universally stacked (for Bears) at some point in 5.2.
As Rhi mentioned, Bear autoattack generates Rage where Warrior does not. Bear autoattack also procs Tooth and Claw, which if you have the Rage generation for SD translates directly into more absorbs.

Monks get a lot from Haste. It not only makes buff maintenance more reliable/guaranteed, it also translates to more Energy/Chi.

On a side note, there's possibly one other reason they may be looking at ShoR to "solve Haste". It already provides a lot of % reduction in this tier, and that's only going to go up. It's already the kind of thing that can totally trivialise physical damage mechanics that are meant to be hard hitting, and they may not be fond of trying to account for that, so they may be thinking that toning down its power/scaling slightly is necessary.

Going back a few pages:

Haste makes the game-play more dynamic and more active. Removing it means that we will end up going back to the boring old 969 style rotation that a braindead monkey could perform to perfection

Even without Haste, we are not going back to anything resembling a 9-6-9-6, so I don't know what that's even about. Haste doesn't actually alter our abilities significantly, it just means you can do the same things faster.

Why do we need to have avoidance stats on our gear? Diminishing Returns are so strong even at low rating levels that the amount of avoidance you get per point simply isn't worth it. Why not simply scrap tanking stats altogether and allow all tanks to use a combination of haste, mastery and crit and remove a bit of bloat from the loot tables? We get a lot of Parry from Strength anyway, and two of the 5 tank classes don't even use those stats at all, they already tank with DPS gear (druid, monk).

I would suspect that's because Agi Leather is something they felt like doing back in the day when it was basically Rogues and Druids, and adding Monks to the pile, it's still fairly niche.
Having all plate tanks and all plate dps competing for the same items is wildly different simply because of how prevalent the players of the classes are, and I think they're trying very hard to avoid that, plus they also think that avoidance is more interesting than we do.

[Klaudandus]

I don't think he blames us in any way. Feels more like "yeah, we dun goofed, now we have to clean up and annoy you. We're looking for a way right now."

To me still sounds like a bad guy getting caught by scooby and the rest of the mystery machine...

If it wasnt for those pesky theorycrafters, no one would have known about haste.

[Sagara]

Cold and honest, I think you're getting worked up a bit.

He goofed, that much is clear, and we caught him red-handed. We're past the finger-pointing stage.

[Klaudandus]

Fine. But only cuz you said so.

I think the biggest reason i am upset is because i spent all that time in beta to get the logs, and now i will be doing that all over again in the ptr...

Plus, its 90 degrees here!

[Shoju]

7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?

Nitpick:
Base miss is 3%, and suppression reduces it to 0 against bosses, so it can effectively be ignored.

They lowered base miss to 3% as well? WTF?

[Darielle]

Yep.

They also had to consequently change the Night Elf racial to 2% Dodge instead of 2% Miss (keeping it Miss would have meant the Racial would have been 0.5% miss because the first 1.5% would have always been suppressed)

Edit:
To get back to something I was thinking of as well, gear inflation this expansion is going to be much larger than ever. We're looking at 540+ items in 5.2 alone. Possibly eclipsing 600 in the next tier. A lot of classes are going to get some insane scaling as a result (Ferals can already get into the 80's for Crit with trinket procs, Fury Warriors might even hit 100% crit)

[Sagara]

Fine. But only cuz you said so.

I think the biggest reason i am upset is because i spent all that time in beta to get the logs, and now i will be doing that all over again in the ptr...

Plus, its 90 degrees here!

Not saying you're not in your right, just that that's not the question right now. So, yeah, understandable

[Shoju]

Yep.

They also had to consequently change the Night Elf racial to 2% Dodge instead of 2% Miss (keeping it Miss would have meant the Racial would have been 0.5% miss because the first 1.5% would have always been suppressed)

Edit:
To get back to something I was thinking of as well, gear inflation this expansion is going to be much larger than ever. We're looking at 540+ items in 5.2 alone. Possibly eclipsing 600 in the next tier. A lot of classes are going to get some insane scaling as a result (Ferals can already get into the 80's for Crit with trinket procs, Fury Warriors might even hit 100% crit)

Thunderforged is TOC2.0 with an added element of RANDOMNESS!

[Malthrax]

Thunderforged is TOC2.0 with an added element of RANDOMNESS!

THUNDEREND BEASTS
THUN'DRAXXUS (Trifling Gnome!!!!)
THUNDER-CHAMPIONS!!!
TWIN THUND'RYRS
THUND'ARAK!!


Oooh...

[djlar]

I just see the frustrations thread be flooded with "it's been X amount of weeks and a Thunderforged item hasn't drop yet"

[Gab]

This Thunderforged thing just seems like a terrible idea to me. If they're hell bent on it then I'd rather they just keep them out of 10 mans altogether. 10 mans are already at the mercy of Loot RNG, now they're just making it that much worse.

I raid 10s these days and I'm fine with 25 mans having a loot advantage, even if it's a little more of an advantage than they already have. Just don't introduce even more RNG nonsense to 10 mans.

[Promdates]

The gearing is essentially the same. 25s do get 2.5x the drops, but they also have 2.5x the number of players in the raid. Can't tell you the number of times we've seen 2-3 of the same item that no one needs/wants. They don't want 25s to die off, I'm not sure if you've noticed is 100% happening currently. Why raid 25 when you can do less work and raid 10. So they want to give people a reason to do 25s again, otherwise no one will be doing it by the next expac. Chances of a 25 going to 10, decently high. Chances of that same 10 going back to 25... not at all.

[Fetzie]

Why raid 25 when you can do less work and raid 10.

Non-officers have less of a chance of being asked to do something in a 25 man raid.

[Darielle]

Non-officers have less of a chance of being asked to do something in a 25 man raid.

No they don't*.

*If you're generalising, and most likely pointing to one specific example and going "THAT TOTALLY DESCRIBES EVERYTHING", and most likely ignoring the very next fight.

[Gab]

The gearing is essentially the same. 25s do get 2.5x the drops, but they also have 2.5x the number of players in the raid. Can't tell you the number of times we've seen 2-3 of the same item that no one needs/wants. They don't want 25s to die off, I'm not sure if you've noticed is 100% happening currently. Why raid 25 when you can do less work and raid 10. So they want to give people a reason to do 25s again, otherwise no one will be doing it by the next expac. Chances of a 25 going to 10, decently high. Chances of that same 10 going back to 25... not at all.

The intent is for the difficulty to be comparable. While not directly relevant to difficulty or tuning, it may also be worth noting that 25-player bosses drop 6 items in both Normal and Heroic difficulty now, instead of just in Heroic, and that the 25-player versions will drop 3 set tokens, instead of the 2 seen in Dragon Soul.

http://www.wowhead.com/bluetracker?topic=6308361511

Pretty sure that's still the case. Wasn't trying to get people all riled about difficulty, merely making a comment about how I'd rather they just not include Thunderforged in 10 mans because loot RNG IS a much bigger factor to begin with. Now they are just adding to it.

"Not at all" is a pretty big stretch. Less work in 10? Ohh boy... You get out what you put in, just like 25.