patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:51 am

Shoju wrote:What on earth did they think was going to happen? Seriously. This game has been going long enough that they should have seen that the player base was going to be looking to remove the RNG, that they were going to be looking for the constants with incoming tank damage. As long as I played the game, Tanking was always preached to me as "Spikes Kill". Smooth out your damage intake, and you make your healers happy, and more apt to keep you alive.

If Haste is the most efficient way to do it, it's not surprising that it was done that way.

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby honorshammer » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:22 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They moved us from Spell Power to Strength in the late-middle of Burning Crusade (Black Temple - or at least my guild was on Black Temple.....).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:31 am

Thread on the US forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709232267
Thread on the EU forum: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6444175401

In case anybody feels inclined to waste 20 seconds of their life sending GC a link via twitter :)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:48 am

honorshammer wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They moved us from Spell Power to Strength in the late-middle of Burning Crusade (Black Temple - or at least my guild was on Black Temple.....).

They moved us to STR in 3.0 (pre-wotlk patch) and converted all paladin tank gear to STR gear.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:50 am

Sagara wrote:
Fetzie wrote:
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?


Warriors are getting double value from haste from items and consumables. Since haste is about as good for DPS as dodge or parry is for DPS warriors.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:31 am

Fetzie wrote:Thread on the US forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709232267
Thread on the EU forum: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6444175401

In case anybody feels inclined to waste 20 seconds of their life sending GC a link via twitter :)

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:45 am

Flex wrote:
Sagara wrote:
Fetzie wrote:They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?


Warriors are getting double value from haste from items and consumables. Since haste is about as good for DPS as dodge or parry is for DPS warriors.


It was nerfed down to a 1.5 multiplier on haste for warriors, and as Flex points out this will only have any impact at all for DPS. Tank warriors get 0 survivability scaling from either crit or haste beyond making the boss die a miniscule amount faster, so this is of little relevance to this discussion. If you removed all dodge from gear then tank warriors would only get survivability scaling from pieces with parry and mastery after hitting hit/exp caps.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:52 am

Rhiannon wrote:It was nerfed down to a 1.5 multiplier on haste for warriors, and as Flex points out this will only have any impact at all for DPS. Tank warriors get 0 survivability scaling from either crit or haste beyond making the boss die a miniscule amount faster, so this is of little relevance to this discussion. If you removed all dodge from gear then tank warriors would only get survivability scaling from pieces with parry and mastery after hitting hit/exp caps.



So wait.... Tank warriors get no benefit from Haste? What about Bears and Drunks?

DK tanks even get benefit from Haste (Unless I missed that change). It's just not so much that you are going to stack it over Mastery. Haste still has an effect on Rune Cooldown right? I'm not saying it's huge, but if you were in fact needing to choose between a piece of gear that had Crit and Haste on it as a Blood DK (say.... it's a HUGE Ilvl upgrade, and the stat is paired with mastery/hit/exp) the haste piece would "technically" be better, since Crit would only affect DPS/TPS as The Active Mitigation MOdel for a DK ignores Crits.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:01 am

Monks love haste, as both their energy regen and auto-attack rate scale with it, and monks gain elusive brew stacks from auto-attack crits, meaning higher average dodge. Obviously this means they also scale with crit, all of which is just as well as leather gear is not itemised with dodge.

Bear auto-attack generates rage, so haste does increase their rage generation (as well as reducing the gcd on faerie fire for what that's worth). Crit auto-attacks and mangles generate more rage, so they scale with that too, again just as well as they're using leather.

Warrior auto-attacks in def stance generate no rage, and none of their rotational abilities are on the spell gcd, so no haste scaling beyond slightly more white damage. Likewise no survival mechanic is tied to critical strike, crit block chance is determined entirely by mastery.

Edit: note I'm just providing information, not making a complaint as to whether this is fair or not or anything. Prot warriors gets rage generation from dodge/parry via the enabling of revenge, so these stats double-dip to some extent in survivability terms. For our raid group it's been working out quite well to be honest (prot warrior, prot paladin, me as fury): I hoover up anything with crit on it, the pally takes anything with haste while the warrior takes any more "traditional" tank pieces. If haste's value is significantly diminished for prot paladin that will be quite annoying for our particular situation.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:19 am

yeah DK rune regeneration is affected by haste - I actually prefereed to get some haste on Morosin for a better feel of "rotation".
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:21 am

yes afaik haste still affects rune speed, which helps cause haste is god for frost and i have to use alot of the same gear for both frost and blood
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:03 am

Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?



The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=48#949
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:15 am

Whenever you dodge, parry or block the remaining cooldown of your CS and HotR is reduced by 0.1 seconds.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:24 am

Notsureifserious
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:26 am

Honestly, i'd rather bite the bullet, lose SoB and get done with it than suffer more rollercoaster, and get back to haste (and crit?) stacking in 6.0 where all tank stats DIE !!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:27 am

Klaudandus wrote:Notsureifserious


That'd be my solution *shrug*
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:35 am

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Notsureifserious


That'd be my solution *shrug*

It would need to reduce the gcd as well by the same amount to begin with, id say.

Otherwise, the ability might be ready but we cant use it, making the proc go to waste.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:44 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?



The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=48#949


This isn't good, and I find it sad. The current system is well-thought, fun and efficient. So of course it has to go, instead of building further improvements from it... What can be salvaged from active mitigation if we are forced to stack avoidance? Even druid tanks don't stack those.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:47 am

Who is going to stack avoidance?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Mannstein » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:58 am

Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?

Blood Spec/Prot/bear/Drunken monk stance gets twice the hit point... aka 1.4Milion on a Heroic equiped tank. Boss hits for 300k...
You don't have avoidance? Prepare to dry the mana from your healers...
You have avoidance? You healers will be able to save mana.

Why increase on the HP? So if a healer can reactively heal if you have bad luck, and to prevent the hard decisions that a Holy pala had in Ulduar:
A) Is the tank at less then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
B) Is the tank at "more" then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
C) Is the tank not taking any damage? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:14 pm

Sagara wrote:Honestly, i'd rather bite the bullet, lose SoB and get done with it than suffer more rollercoaster, and get back to haste (and crit?) stacking in 6.0 where all tank stats DIE !!


Not entirely sure I like how GC replied to you, specially because its not our fault the stat weights have that bias towards Haste
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:20 pm

I blame the medium, and really took no offense. His answer made sense and I read it as "because we didn't want you to consider Haste the go-to stat and now you're in weird corner where you look outside "your" loot."

Which lead to my next question, which is the most important to me now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:26 pm

Mannstein wrote:
Flex wrote:Who is going to stack avoidance?

Blood Spec/Prot/bear/Drunken monk stance gets twice the hit point... aka 1.4Milion on a Heroic equiped tank. Boss hits for 300k...
You don't have avoidance? Prepare to dry the mana from your healers...
You have avoidance? You healers will be able to save mana.

Why increase on the HP? So if a healer can reactively heal if you have bad luck, and to prevent the hard decisions that a Holy pala had in Ulduar:
A) Is the tank at less then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
B) Is the tank at "more" then 100% life? CAST HOLY LIGHT!
C) Is the tank not taking any damage? CAST HOLY LIGHT!


Uh.... No. that's not quite how it works. It's not doubling your hit points.
1 more Mastery on a Blood Specc'd DK is more damage mitigation on a hit, guaranteed. I knew that if I increased my mastery by 1 it would increase my blood shield by a set amount, which would decrease the damage I took from a hit. Guaranteed. no guess work. That's why Armor was such a good stat when you could get pieces with bonus armor. It was always there. It always reduced the damage. It was a constant.

Avoidance is a % chance to not be hit. It could give allow you to miss that swing from the boss, or it could fail you, and you still get hit. You could also get really unlucky and have avoidance fail you, multiple times, in a row. It's unlikely, but it could happen. For me, Avoidance was a "take what you get, but don't gear for it."

It's part of what attracted me to the DK when I quit my paladin. The Dk has/d more control over their survival. i'm unsure how the current active mitigation models are working out for the other classes, so I can't speak to how well they are performing. I can just say that I felt more in control with my DK than I did my paladin.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:30 pm

Sagara wrote:I blame the medium, and really took no offense. His answer made sense and I read it as "because we didn't want you to consider Haste the go-to stat and now you're in weird corner where you look outside "your" loot."

Which lead to my next question, which is the most important to me now.


Yeah, but still seems a bit tonedeaf since there is a reason why we look outside our loot, and they knew of the reason for quite a while.

We are just trying to maximize the cards that blizz decided to deal us.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:51 pm

I don't think he blames us in any way. Feels more like "yeah, we dun goofed, now we have to clean up and annoy you. We're looking for a way right now."
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