patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:@Ghostcrawler no offense, but you guys knew about Haste and Prot Paladins since well before live.
Re: @Zackfig At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
Re: @Zackfig We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.


fuzzygeek wrote:
Darielle wrote:that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.


I'm uncertain how they can make random chance avoidance attractive. You'd think they'd've learned by now that tanks hate randomness.


I'm really having a bad feeling about this, but I'm still willing to admit it's "the sky is falling!". What needs to be said and realised by everyone concerned is WHY we like Haste - its influence on ShotR due to Sanctity of Battle.

Maybe they should simply scrap SoB, and compensate with a buff to our Mastery coefficient. This way, Haste is removed from the equation, we eat Mastery like it's gone out of style, then stack Stamina. Because as long as Haste as a decent (non-insignificant) influence on Hit/Exp/Mastery, we'll keep looking for Haste instead of avoidance, no matter how hard you hit on ShotR.

Best case scenario, we move from a Haste-based gearing to a Mastery-based gearing (which was one of the big contenders Theck analysed, with its highest downside being the net DPS loss). If memory serves, Theck's numbers place Hit/Exp/Mastery above avoidance, even with low haste values.

EDIT: Re: GC's comments. I thought Theck had made it incredibly clear why we like controllable defenses, i.e. to limit the threat of high spikes on the one hand, and to keep healers calm and cool under pressure on the other hand.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:49 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Paladin
- For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=45#884

It was good while it lasted.


I'm extremely hostile to such a change... It took a lot of time, gear selection, upgrades and valor points to build the gear I have now. This change would remove one of the most fun and interesting parts of our gameplay, and to replace it with what... random passive avoidance.

If I post something through the "feedback" interface ingame, do you think it'll reach the devs? Being on a european server, I can't post on the US forums in response to the blue post.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:04 am

First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:24 am

I asked GC a few months back what he thought of Dodge/Parry being so undervalued by Paladins, but he just dodged the question and turned it back on me.

I like the way they made haste/hit/exp gearing work and have been thinking it was time they just scrap tank stats on gear; I got the impression that it was pretty widely popular. Apparently Blizzard disagrees and wants tank stats back.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby lythac » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:49 am

Shoju wrote:About the only way you could save 25m is to give them an out of raid "perk" of some sort


Have bosses drop 5 lesser charms. All it does is save 25 man raiders time and frustration (from daily quests), which they get from being in a 25 man guild. Although it doesn't solve the guild/raid leader time investment compared to basic raider issue.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:55 am

Raid leader gets 10 lesser charms, and other players get 5 per boss? Or 5 and 3? There's your extra loot for 25's right there. Hell, push it to 20 and 10 for all I care! 9 bosses = all your Lesser charm needs for the week!

EDIT: even better: chance (I think between 15 and 25% per boss) of ELDER charm dropping. With higher chance if you raid lead.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:02 am

Sagara wrote:First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.


How about this list:
  • Haste gives us more control over our incoming damage. The loss of haste firstly removes any benefit we gain from bloodlust, and makes for a much slower (i.e. more boring) play style
  • Haste allows us to further reduce our damage taken by a reliable amount through the scaling of Sacred Shield
  • There is no way to make Dodge and Parry attractive enough that we would take them over Haste or Mastery. If Haste and Mastery become less attractive than Dodge and Parry all we will do is go back to the Stamina stacking of WotLK
  • Haste makes the game-play more dynamic and more active. Removing it means that we will end up going back to the boring old 969 style rotation that a braindead monkey could perform to perfection
  • Why do we need to have avoidance stats on our gear? Diminishing Returns are so strong even at low rating levels that the amount of avoidance you get per point simply isn't worth it. Why not simply scrap tanking stats altogether and allow all tanks to use a combination of haste, mastery and crit and remove a bit of bloat from the loot tables? We get a lot of Parry from Strength anyway, and two of the 5 tank classes don't even use those stats at all, they already tank with DPS gear (druid, monk).
  • This expansion was meant to be about giving the tank more personal responsibility over their damage intake and self-healing. Active Mitigation was the buzz-word of the beta with regards to tanking. Are we really going to see that scrapped in favour of passive damage reductions and random effects? That seems contrary to everything said in the last 12 months.
  • Finally, Haste is a fun stat. It increases the amount of buttons we can press in a given time frame, it allows us to show off on the damage numbers every now and again and you can see your potential survivability going up. Dodge, Parry (and to a lesser extent Mastery) do not do this. Isn't "it is fun" a valid argument anymore?
Last edited by Fetzie on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:03 am

Sagara wrote:First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.


Thanks for the tips. The post is here. I hope it'll contribute in a way.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:30 am

Fetzie wrote:How about this list:


Great! That's how we get things moving! I'm going to be splitting and combining a couple of things that I feel deserve grouped or separate coverage. Feel free to slap me upside the head.

  • Haste gives us more control over our incoming damage.
    Nothing that Mastery cannot replace. Haste is a "twin" to Mastery, extending ShotR coverage instead of power.
  • The loss of haste firstly removes any benefit we gain from bloodlust
    Which means BL is no longer a survival CD for us, in short. I did a quick comparaison of AMR's values for the other plate tanks and they don't seem to value haste. So we were the oddball. I'll agree we can't end up losing potential against the other tanks, but BL is more along the "Nice to have" things that won't make or break gameplay.
  • and makes for a much slower (i.e. more boring) play style
    THAT, on the other hand, is annoying as hell, although I'm willing to admit it's QoL mostly - it's just SO fun when we get a massive Haste buff and start hitting key like Kenshiro on speed.
  • Haste allows us to further reduce our damage taken by a reliable amount through the scaling of Sacred Shield
    I'll admit ignorance - isn't the increase in SS by haste limited to breakpoints giving extra ticks? How easy is it to get an extra tick anyway? Further, we won't *lose* that power, it's just that we'd have to balance it against other options.
  • There is no way to make Dodge and Parry attractive enough that we would take them over Haste or Mastery. If Haste and Mastery become less attractive than Dodge and Parry all we will do is go back to the Stamina stacking of WotLK
    100% totaly agreed. If anything, I'd advocated pushing Haste back and bringing Mastery forward instead. We *won't* stack dodge or parry unless there's basically nothing else left. I'm almost thinking we'd rather improve our DPS to help Raid DPS than stack avoidance.
  • Haste makes the game-play more dynamic and more active. Removing it means that we will end up going back to the boring old 969 style rotation that a braindead monkey could perform to perfection
    Not true. There are players working with the Mastery/Control approach and their rotation is equal to the Haste/Control approach, if just a tad slower. What would probably bring us back to 969 or 939 is either a new filler to eat up the holes in our rotation, or CS/HotR going back to 3sec CD.
  • Why do we need to have avoidance stats on our gear? Diminishing Returns are so strong even at low rating levels that the amount of avoidance you get per point simply isn't worth it. Why not simply scrap tanking stats altogether and allow all tanks to use a combination of haste, mastery and crit and remove a bit of bloat from the loot tables? We get a lot of Parry from Strength anyway, and two of the 5 tank classes don't even use those stats at all, they already tank with DPS gear (druid, monk).
    *DING DING DING DING* We have a winner! If we weren't mid-xpack, I'd advocate finding some use for crit for tanks and throwing away the entire dodge/parry (idea: critical dodge - critical strike rating now increases your chance to dodge an attack by allowing to better predict incoming attacks).
  • This expansion was meant to be about giving the tank more personal responsibility over their damage intake and self-healing. Active Mitigation was the buzz-word of the beta with regards to tanking. Are we really going to see that scrapped in favour of passive damage reductions and random effects? That seems contrary to everything said in the last 12 months.
    This is fondamentally the same as your first point. Blizz shouldn't push AM away, and the best approach is to secure Mastery's place as the "control stat".
  • Finally, Haste is a fun stat. It increases the amount of buttons we can press in a given time frame, it allows us to show off on the damage numbers every now and again and you can see your potential survivability going up. Dodge, Parry (and to a lesser extent Mastery) do not do this. Isn't "it is fun" a valid argument anymore?
    It is! I'd love to have a better solution than to lose the fun factor of haste stacking. But what we DO need first is a way to not eat into Plate DPSer's loot tables. If we can get both, all the better - but is that possible?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:47 am

Shoju wrote:
Worldie wrote:For me 10 men is "the raid size for casual and friendly gameplay", it will never be real raiding :P


You really couldn't be more wrong. I've actually done heroic mode progress on both sizes this tier (25 man Sha was a world 19 25 man kill, 10 man was a world 72 10 man kill) and 25 man is a snoozefest compared to 10 at the moment. Yes, it's harder to organize logistically but no way in hell you can tell me the encounters are harder. Add that to the fact that you gear up way more efficiently already in 25 man (loot rarely gets sharded because no one can equip it, more items drop per person).

I could even argue that high end progression 10 mans are even harder to organize logistically. You really need to be extremely flexible in your setup. Just look at Empress - good luck doing that without either 2 disc priests or a disc priest and a shaman healer.

I'm just kind of annoyed with this change. Considering there are some items my guild just haven't seen DROP, ever, this tier (hello Elegon trinket) it's not going to be fun having even more RNG in a loot system already plagued by it. For comparison it took me 14 weeks to even see the shield from Spirit Kings drop, and I used a coin every week on it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:49 am

I'll admit ignorance - isn't the increase in SS by haste limited to breakpoints giving extra ticks? How easy is it to get an extra tick anyway? Further, we won't *lose* that power, it's just that we'd have to balance it against other options.

5 base ticks.

6th tick @ 10% spell haste = naked with SoI
7th tick @ 30% spell haste = about 6500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff
8th tick @ 50% spell haste = about 11500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff

The 7th tick is easily reachable while keeping hit and expertise capped with 490+gear. The 8th tick requires trinket procs or external haste effects at our current gear level. Would probably be obtainable just with gear in T15 heroic gear.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:55 am

Fetzie wrote:
I'll admit ignorance - isn't the increase in SS by haste limited to breakpoints giving extra ticks? How easy is it to get an extra tick anyway? Further, we won't *lose* that power, it's just that we'd have to balance it against other options.

5 base ticks.

6th tick @ 10% spell haste = naked with SoI
7th tick @ 30% spell haste = about 6500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff
8th tick @ 50% spell haste = about 11500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff

The 7th tick is easily reachable while keeping hit and expertise capped with 490+gear. The 8th tick requires trinket procs or external haste effects at our current gear level. Would probably be obtainable just with gear in T15 heroic gear.


Yeah, so we're definitly going to lose something in the process. OTOH, SS is currently a no-brainer.
I wouldn't mind seeing some of its power transfered (no lost, get me Blizz?) to our class/spec abilities instead, and the lost extra ticks might be a good place to start.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:58 am

It's possible that part of their argument for the upcoming changes is the same negative that prompted me to ask GC about it: It's counterintuitive for "tank" stats to be the least desirable. They may consider this a barrier to tanks who don't rely on out-of-game resources.

The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.

-
I find it odd that GCs response to why they waited, though, is that they thought tanks would stop trying to maximise ShoR uptime through haste once they had enough health to more comfortably survive hits without it. Seems like a total misunderstanding of how tanks think (and of how good ShoR is).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:01 am

It is also quite easy, with trinket /use or proc, to reach the 90% spell haste mark with bloodlust active (5 extra ticks @150k AP is about 400k absorb per 30 seconds).
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?

And as for making dps plate more desireable, just leave current tanking items on the loot table, the same items will drop, just that now anybody can use them.

Another point: Having ret and prot use the same gear and stat priorities makes using a secondary spec much, much more convenient. Isn't optimal, because stamina gems don't make you do more damage, but workable at the very least.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:06 am

Fetzie wrote:
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:15 am

KysenMurrin wrote:It's possible that part of their argument for the upcoming changes is the same negative that prompted me to ask GC about it: It's counterintuitive for "tank" stats to be the least desirable. They may consider this a barrier to tanks who don't rely on out-of-game resources.

The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.

-
I find it odd that GCs response to why they waited, though, is that they thought tanks would stop trying to maximise ShoR uptime through haste once they had enough health to more comfortably survive hits without it. Seems like a total misunderstanding of how tanks think (and of how good ShoR is).


i asked him the same thing in the stat scaling blue post... i am guessing that's why he's talking about it now...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:23 am

I did a follow-up tweet before reading fetzies post here - and basically what I hear and see when GC ( blzzard) says haste is too good is "We don't like Active mitigation being so good" - I thought with the AM post they had decided they wanted parry and dodge to be the least desirable stats - so are/were they fully committed to the AM model?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby melisandyr » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:38 am

I'd like to see some changes to avoidance to make it more attractive. But it's hard to see how they could do that for paladins, and not all of the other classes.

I think one of the most important reasons to stack haste is that it takes pressure off healers by smoothing damage intake.
In the current game, one of the reasons that avoidance is so unattractive, beyond the diminishing returns, is that it doesn't relieve pressure on healers, it increases nervousness by making damage intake spikey.

Would like to see Blizzard understanding more about what is important to tanks, before making a considered decision in these changes. Really dislike the stilted view that "all tanks want to do more damage" which seems to prevail in designing the game at the moment, and more thoughts about our interactions with the healing team, which is critical to raiding and challenges.

I would like to see more active mitigation being generated:

Perhaps one solution would be to introduce a stacking buff, increasing healing every time an attack was avoided?
Or, Will of the Emperor special ability-like, a stacking buff that ensures the next attack from the boss will be avoided.

Beyond this, I do have concerns about the way removing all haste will make the paladin rotation feel (sorry thinking orientated scientists). There's a point at the moment, probably around 3k haste, where the rotation begins to feel much more intuitive and pleasant, and your ability cooldowns seem to gel nicely. I do think the prot rotation at 0 haste is a little more clunky.

Finally, with removing haste, I fear that paladins will be even further disadvantaged in challenge mode content. Lower dps and spikier damage is not going to increase our already poor representation (and slow ramp-up on aoe threat). Perhaps some thought could be given to how this could be compensated for?

I would welcome a change that makes avoidance stats more attractive, but I hope it can be implemented in a considered way that doesn't relegate us to second choice like in DS.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:50 am

Nooska wrote:I did a follow-up tweet before reading fetzies post here - and basically what I hear and see when GC ( blzzard) says haste is too good is "We don't like Active mitigation being so good" - I thought with the AM post they had decided they wanted parry and dodge to be the least desirable stats - so are/were they fully committed to the AM model?


I think it's more of some sort of bias.

Darielle was right earlier, they overvalue avoidance whereas players always prefer to reduce RNG as much as possible.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:07 am

The players way of thinking can't be a mystery to them though - GC has directly said they follow, amongst other places, maintankadin (and I' would guess Sacredduty) (as I asked specifically about maintankadin).

So if they think we are "wrong" they should try to convince us TDR is better than spike reduction (faster lower damage attacks as the norm for instance) - avoidance is better at that, though it would sitll be contradictory to the active mitigation model, as avoidance is, by definition, passive mitigation (as I already said on twitter).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:14 am

The problem with our active mitigation may just have been that with haste stacking our uptime on ShoR would be getting higher than they wanted in later tiers.

Edit: Heh, I keep saying "our" and "we". I haven't tanked in years.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:26 am

Nooska wrote:The players way of thinking can't be a mystery to them though - GC has directly said they follow, amongst other places, maintankadin (and I' would guess Sacredduty) (as I asked specifically about maintankadin).

So if they think we are "wrong" they should try to convince us TDR is better than spike reduction (faster lower damage attacks as the norm for instance) - avoidance is better at that, though it would sitll be contradictory to the active mitigation model, as avoidance is, by definition, passive mitigation (as I already said on twitter).


Then that's being overly optimistic at best, willfully ignorant at worst.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:30 am

Meh, if they can produce numbers and empirical test data showing that their approach is better and that Theck is wrong, then I'll have no problem with changing. Until that time comes, however, I'm sticking with the haste crowd.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:38 am

Fetzie wrote:Meh, if they can produce numbers and empirical test data showing that their approach is better and that Theck is wrong, then I'll have no problem with changing. Until that time comes, however, I'm sticking with the haste crowd.


And that's my point.

The reason why it is a sticking point is because paladins have the most counterintuitive stat weights of all tanks, which again, its all because of our AM mechanics, and which they knew about since well before live.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 am

I had thought it was really weird that Paladins liked Haste so much. I was looking around at the other tanks, and most of them were doing the hit / exp then tank stats thing, while paladins were stacking haste.

After doing some reading, it's not surprising. At the end of T11 and in the early stages of T12, there was a big push in the DK community to try and fuel our active mitigation as much as possible. There were sims being done to see how much better off we'd be by stacking our hit and EXP to the cap, and then stacking mastery until our eyes bled. In the end, it became "If your pushing bleeding edge, get capped, and then mastery, and forget avoidance all together. If not bleeding edge, MASTERY IS YOUR GOD."

If Haste is fueling yours the way that ours was fueled in T12, They REALLY shouldn't be surprised to see you do it.

When they started talking 5.0, and how they wanted tanks to care about hitting more, I was worried that "tank stats" were going to take a back seat. Then, they announced that bosses ignore portions of dodge and parry. Then, they changed block to a separate roll.

Couple all of this with such low avoidance values, the return of math olympics for DR (Something that I remember them specifically saying they were trying to lessen in the game.), and I guess I don't understand what they thought was going to happen?

Pardon me, while I dig into theck's stats a little. Theck's Armory shows
7.46 Dodge
19.39 Parry
Then you have the 5 Miss. That's 31.85% Avoidance.

Then he goes up against a boss, and you lose 4.5 dodge, 4.5 parry, and 4.5 miss. -13.5

So he's sitting at 18.35% Avoidance Pre Buffs. Post Buffs? What.... 23 at the most?

What on earth did they think was going to happen? Seriously. This game has been going long enough that they should have seen that the player base was going to be looking to remove the RNG, that they were going to be looking for the constants with incoming tank damage. As long as I played the game, Tanking was always preached to me as "Spikes Kill". Smooth out your damage intake, and you make your healers happy, and more apt to keep you alive.

If Haste is the most efficient way to do it, it's not surprising that it was done that way.
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