patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby bldavis » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:19 pm

Teranoid wrote:Yeah.. "cool". That's totally the word I'd use to describe it.

sorry did i forget the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] markers? my bad

hey man, to each their own, im sure there are things you like that i would look at and go WTF


as for the changes...i am starting to think they just put random brain pukes on a bunch of post it notes and put them on a dart board and go
we made this change *throws dart* for this reason *throws another dart* to fix this problem *throws 2 darts, just in case*
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:32 pm

@Ghostcrawler no offense, but you guys knew about Haste and Prot Paladins since well before live.
Re: @Zackfig At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
Re: @Zackfig We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:23 pm

And I have no fucking idea how NERFING SotR would do anything to solve our love for Haste, specially since our love for haste is tied to:
a) Hit and Exp due to our need to NOT MISS our HP generators
b) the double roll on block chance greatly devaluing not just mastery, but avoidance in general.


While I'm sure that they'll come up with a stupid reason for why they never did it (they've always overvalued avoidance or total damage reduction compared to players, and never really understood why people don't quite buy in that way), hitting ShoR WOULD affect the value of Haste. It would also affect Mastery, Hit and Exp, but it would hit Haste relative to Dodge/Parry if more of our mitigation was tied to avoidance and passive effects and less to ShoR, especially if they hit ShoR's effectiveness and then do something odd to tie avoidance into that crowd (like Dodge/Parry tying into HP in some roundabout way, or amplifying Mastery, or something odd like that) to "even out".
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:40 pm

Darielle wrote:
And I have no fucking idea how NERFING SotR would do anything to solve our love for Haste, specially since our love for haste is tied to:
a) Hit and Exp due to our need to NOT MISS our HP generators
b) the double roll on block chance greatly devaluing not just mastery, but avoidance in general.


While I'm sure that they'll come up with a stupid reason for why they never did it (they've always overvalued avoidance or total damage reduction compared to players, and never really understood why people don't quite buy in that way), hitting ShoR WOULD affect the value of Haste. It would also affect Mastery, Hit and Exp, but it would hit Haste relative to Dodge/Parry if more of our mitigation was tied to avoidance and passive effects and less to ShoR, especially if they hit ShoR's effectiveness and then do something odd to tie avoidance into that crowd (like Dodge/Parry tying into HP in some roundabout way, or amplifying Mastery, or something odd like that) to "even out".


They can nerf sanctity of battle... and hit our haste overall, but nerfing SotR straight out seems counter-intuitive as it would most likely devalue mastery as well, since SotR mitigation is tied to how much mastery we have...

you're pretty much right, they would need to make us a bit more passive somewhere else to make up for it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:15 pm

The warrior set looks... interesting

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:28 pm

They can nerf sanctity of battle... and hit our haste overall, but nerfing SotR straight out seems counter-intuitive as it would most likely devalue mastery as well, since SotR mitigation is tied to how much mastery we have...


It would, but since they seem to be specifically concerned about D/P and not just Haste, that might be their goal.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:37 pm

Darielle wrote:
They can nerf sanctity of battle... and hit our haste overall, but nerfing SotR straight out seems counter-intuitive as it would most likely devalue mastery as well, since SotR mitigation is tied to how much mastery we have...


It would, but since they seem to be specifically concerned about D/P and not just Haste, that might be their goal.


still not seeing it how that would prop D/P.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:20 pm

Klaudandus wrote:The warrior set looks... interesting

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First thing i though yesterday

"That kind of looks like a paladin tier"


First thing that our monk tank (ex-warrior) said looking at it

"Hey,that looks like a paladin"

First thing one of our dps warriors said

"is that the paladin set?"

Nothing of this is made up btw
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:56 pm

still not seeing it how that would prop D/P.


Anything they do to the Haste-Hit-Expertise-Mastery chain in theory weakens them compared to Dodge-Parry. Given their apparent goal is to "not nerf survivability", that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:02 pm

Darielle wrote:that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.


I'm uncertain how they can make random chance avoidance attractive. You'd think they'd've learned by now that tanks hate randomness.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:@Ghostcrawler no offense, but you guys knew about Haste and Prot Paladins since well before live.
Re: @Zackfig At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
Re: @Zackfig We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.


fuzzygeek wrote:
Darielle wrote:that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.


I'm uncertain how they can make random chance avoidance attractive. You'd think they'd've learned by now that tanks hate randomness.


I'm really having a bad feeling about this, but I'm still willing to admit it's "the sky is falling!". What needs to be said and realised by everyone concerned is WHY we like Haste - its influence on ShotR due to Sanctity of Battle.

Maybe they should simply scrap SoB, and compensate with a buff to our Mastery coefficient. This way, Haste is removed from the equation, we eat Mastery like it's gone out of style, then stack Stamina. Because as long as Haste as a decent (non-insignificant) influence on Hit/Exp/Mastery, we'll keep looking for Haste instead of avoidance, no matter how hard you hit on ShotR.

Best case scenario, we move from a Haste-based gearing to a Mastery-based gearing (which was one of the big contenders Theck analysed, with its highest downside being the net DPS loss). If memory serves, Theck's numbers place Hit/Exp/Mastery above avoidance, even with low haste values.

EDIT: Re: GC's comments. I thought Theck had made it incredibly clear why we like controllable defenses, i.e. to limit the threat of high spikes on the one hand, and to keep healers calm and cool under pressure on the other hand.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:49 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Paladin
- For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=45#884

It was good while it lasted.


I'm extremely hostile to such a change... It took a lot of time, gear selection, upgrades and valor points to build the gear I have now. This change would remove one of the most fun and interesting parts of our gameplay, and to replace it with what... random passive avoidance.

If I post something through the "feedback" interface ingame, do you think it'll reach the devs? Being on a european server, I can't post on the US forums in response to the blue post.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:04 am

First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:24 am

I asked GC a few months back what he thought of Dodge/Parry being so undervalued by Paladins, but he just dodged the question and turned it back on me.

I like the way they made haste/hit/exp gearing work and have been thinking it was time they just scrap tank stats on gear; I got the impression that it was pretty widely popular. Apparently Blizzard disagrees and wants tank stats back.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby lythac » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:49 am

Shoju wrote:About the only way you could save 25m is to give them an out of raid "perk" of some sort


Have bosses drop 5 lesser charms. All it does is save 25 man raiders time and frustration (from daily quests), which they get from being in a 25 man guild. Although it doesn't solve the guild/raid leader time investment compared to basic raider issue.
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