patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Hawkslayer » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:55 am

I don't mind Blizzard making it easier for 25-mans to get better loot, but the whole idea of it being impossible for 10-mans to get the same loot as 25-mans is not a direction I will follow again.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:07 pm

And lets face it, attrition of the playerbase is also playing in. The people that raided 40 man in vanilla and 25 man in BC are getting older. As you get older you have more real life commitments - heck most of our raidgroup (before we called a stop to it ) were either getting babies, having kids or were kids themselves back when 40mand and 25 man were the only raidsizes for end game - so apart from 25man being logistically harder, they also suffer from RL more, so 25man raiding will never be "the thing" again. Hence, incentivising 25man further is really just "rewarding the ones that can still stick to it despite RL".

Tbh, apart from the bigh world first race guilds, 10 man is now the "real raiding" and 25 man is where you can bring along people just for being "friends and family2 because the others can pick up the slack - unlike in 10 man where 1 dps lost in e.g. Elegon means a wipe because there is a "spark" that won't be taken down.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

That's a pretty hefty generalisation. If a raid group can carry people who are underperforming, then that raid group is dealing with content below their capabilities, regardless of their raid size. We boosted a social through a bunch of 10 man heroic kills when someone couldn't make it and he was doing 60% of the average dps. We couldn't tackle some with that player in the raid because we were barely beating enrage with our main team at the time. The same applies to 25 man groups; if they're having to carry "friends and family" then their progress is going to be handicapped as a result, and it's impossible to quantify which raid size suffers more as a result of this on a general basis, as it depends entirely on the specific requirements of each fight.

One could give the counter-example that on spirit kings heroic, or windlord it only takes one person to not stop attacking during a shield/derping a wind bomb to wipe the raid, so getting 25 people to react properly is harder than 10. Honestly trying to claim one format is more "real" than another is a horse that's been beaten to death, they're just different, with some encounters easier in one format than the other.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:34 pm

Tbh, apart from the bigh world first race guilds, 10 man is now the "real raiding" and 25 man is where you can bring along people just for being "friends and family2 because the others can pick up the slack - unlike in 10 man where 1 dps lost in e.g. Elegon means a wipe because there is a "spark" that won't be taken down.


Uh.

If you're talking Normal mode raiding only, that can maybe be bought - it'd still be almost always wrong as a generalisation, e.g., if you're a 25-man Normal guild shooting for a first kill, losing a person is going to mean that Spark hits earlier as a pretty universal rule (not never hits, because that's assuming raiders are just stupid). When it comes to Heroics, hell no.

Anyway, from my perspective, the reason this won't do a damn thing on the whole 25-man raid thing is that it really just does what already exists anyway - allows 25-man to have a temporary "higher average ilvl among raiders" in compensation for "harder tuned stuff" during the early progression while 10-man eventually "catches up" once you've had enough weeks for RNG to smooth down.

Kinda makes me wish we didn't have CS, and they would just leave us with a buffed version of HotR... like in the old days of 969

Say what you want about 969... boring, easy, et al, but at least it was the very model of efficiency =P


Pretend AS is the buffed version of HotR.
Last edited by Darielle on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:41 pm

'Cept back then we also had AS. :roll:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 pm

Klaudandus wrote:'Cept back then we also had AS. :roll:


buffed version of HotR.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:43 pm

Darielle wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:'Cept back then we also had AS. :roll:


buffed version of HotR.


. --> you
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Gab » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:10 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Honestly trying to claim one format is more "real" than another is a horse that's been beaten to death, they're just different, with some encounters easier in one format than the other.


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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:19 pm

Worldie wrote:For me 10 men is "the raid size for casual and friendly gameplay", it will never be real raiding :P


Well, thanks for telling me that my raiding experiences weren't real raiding. That's awesome. :roll:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:25 pm

You could always say that 25-mans are epeens-measuring/waving festivals more than true raiding, but that would not be fair towards the 25man raiders that have never really treated 10mans (or the people that raid them) with disdain or contempt...

I agree with Gab and Rhiannon... the horse has been beaten to death on this its but a pulp now...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:49 pm

It's gone into Undead status by now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Paxen » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:57 pm

The way to rescue 25 man raiding would be to find a way to reward the raid leader and officers who put the thing together, but how the hell do you do that...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:24 pm

I don't think that there is a way to save 25 man raiding at this point. It is what it is, and Thunderforged and more ilvls on a random drop certainly aren't going to do it. If you segregate the community again, and give 10m less gear ilvl, you are going to piss off a population of the game that is growing, while only pleasing a section of the community that is shrinking.

Lurkers went 10 man in WotLK and never looked back. We killed Illy-dan in TBC, and then lost the critical mass to make a huge push into SWP. We went 10m in Wotlk, and even had multiple 10's running on the same night for a good portion of T7, and a few times in T8. 10m is more manageable. It was more enjoyable for a lot of us.

About the only way you could save 25m is to give them an out of raid "perk" of some sort, for meeting benchmark criteria for being a "25man raiding guild" during the week. Something like:

Kill a boss in 25 with 20+ Guild Members = this reward.
Kill 2 boss in 25 with 20+ Guild Members = this even cooler reward.
Kill 3 boss in 25 with 20+ Guild Members = this even cooler reward.
Kill 4 boss in 25 with 20+ Guild Members = this even cooler reward.
Kill 5 boss in 25 with 20+ Guild Members = this even cooler reward.

And so on and so forth. The idea that you are going to find a way to segregate raiding again, and not infuriate an awful lot of players just isn't going to fly.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:14 pm

The thing is, organizing a 25 men guild requires way more effort and troubles than running a 10 men.
Also, in most 25 men guilds there's always a competition for raid spots, considering you usually have for example 25+ DPS with only 17 spots in raid, while in 10 men you usually run no more than 11-12 people, thus more stress for the players who have to perform better in order to be taken to raids.

The point is that this extra effort both from leadership and playerbase is not rewarded. It's needed that 25 men give "something more", even if it's just achievements. Surely casuals will QQ that OMG THEY CAN GET A COOL GOAT MOUNT CUZ THEY RUN 25 I WANT IT TOO FOR DOING NOTHING IN STORMWIND, but we're used to that.

They said in some previous interview that they are thinking of splitting the glory achievements again. That'd be a good start.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:35 pm

The Legendary metas are kinda neat.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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