Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:24 pm

Treck wrote:It honestly never occured to me we were talking about normalmode, its been a while now, dont really know what makes the fight "hard", but I remember its a case of "hard mode only" abilities making the fight easier (LoS thingy)
its surely harder than faceroll spirit kings, and Will isnt that hard of a fight either but shit can go wrong.

Passionario wrote:According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.

What kind of statistics are that? are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?
Elegon is very likely overtuned against the other bosses on normalmode, but I wouldnt say killing a boss that takes 3-5 tries to be a worthy boss progressing.
This isnt meant to be read as an elitistic tone btw


Fair point. But, as the stats suggest, for normalmode it becomes a bit of a cockblock. The issue is simply coordination and having the burst dps to get 4 cycles of sparks down.

Look at it this way, it's the first fight that requires individual responsibility in a dps check. You can't as easily carry a weak dps in the fight. (I'll admit I had problems as a spriest getting the damage rolling).

Finally, Blizz knows where people are stuck on "progression" and they have a patch coming, and they want people moving on into HoF and Terrace.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:44 pm

I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Worldie wrote:I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*


meh... I could see a bit of a nerf coming on Galergawhatever (big bug) and we'll have to see on fights after that. The bug is the next "cockblock".

But I don't see why you are so concerned about it. If it is the older tier, better that it's rolled back some, and still relevant?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:55 pm

I am a person with many alts. I have a lot of interest in knowing what the next route to gear up a char will be.

I rather be able to PuG through t14, than having to just ... farm heroics again! and again! and again!
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:29 pm

Worldie wrote:I am a person with many alts. I have a lot of interest in knowing what the next route to gear up a char will be.


Then if you are leveling a feral or guardian next, see my note in the memo thread...
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:35 pm

Sadly I don't have those items yet, plus I'm leveling my druid as resto :P
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:14 am

Worldie wrote:I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.


I dunno, there's a certain logic to nerfing that particular segment.

Other aspects of the fight have fairly clear accountability, either individual or for a particular role. Someone falls through the floor? It's immediately obvious who they are. Someone lets their spark go through? The column is a dead giveaway. Someone gets one-shotted by TA? Clearly they didn't reset their stacks. Protector doesn't get killed quickly enough? The DPSers should step up their game. Protector dies on sparkly floor? The tank should move faster. People are demolished in P3? Time for healers to pop CDs and start burning through mana like it's magic rocket fuel.

The transition sub-phase, however, is quite chaotic, which makes evaluating weak links rather hard. If someone gets killed by a stray add, who's to blame for it? Themselves, for getting caught? Or the healers for not topping them off beforehand? Or the DPSers for not bringing the columns down fast/synchronized enough? Or the tank for not grabbing the adds quickly with the tools they have*? Or the RNG for picking the worst targets possible? Or the raid leader for not bringing a DK to trivialize this segment with AotD?

I would prefer if they'd somehow tweak this section to make responsibility for failures more clear - but frankly, I don't see any obvious way to achieve that. So nerfing this part altogether is probably the next best thing.

Treck wrote:What kind of statistics are that?


OK, then let's take 30% of the most successful 10N raids.
Kings? 3-shot or better. Will? 4-shot or better. Elegon? 19.

Then let's look at number of pre-kill wipes for the least fortunate 20%.
Kings: 11, Will: 14, Elegon: 54.

As you can see, the pattern is largely the same.
Normal mode Elegon is really overtuned compared to the bosses before and after him.

Treck wrote: are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?


I'd say that people expect to progress at a more or less consistent pace, regardless of the actual speed. That is, if past experience has shown me that our raid can learn a new boss in a couple of evenings worth of pulls, getting stuck on the same boss for several weeks will be frustrating. Ditto if we generally take a week to learn a new fight and then get stuck for over a month.

I'm not saying that every single fight should take the exact same time to learn, down to a minute - variety is very important. However, when one particular encounter is five times as hard as the ones preceding and following it, that's just poor raid tuning.

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:16 am

On 10, we just really need to look at paragon progression for Elegon - 27 pulls compared to single digit pulls of all the other bosses - sortof says it all, when they need 4 times as many pulls on that one boss (I assume we don't need to discuss whether they know their crap and how to do stuff).
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Newsom » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:31 am

Worldie wrote:I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*


What I find interesting/weird is the lack of new 5 man heroics for catch up gear. Or maybe that will be added in a future PTR patch?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:46 am

Newsom wrote:What I find interesting/weird is the lack of new 5 man heroics for catch up gear. Or maybe that will be added in a future PTR patch?


They may consider LFR gear sufficient for "catch up gear."
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:04 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Newsom wrote:What I find interesting/weird is the lack of new 5 man heroics for catch up gear. Or maybe that will be added in a future PTR patch?


They may consider LFR gear sufficient for "catch up gear."


There was a blue post about it that basically indicated that they wouldn't be adding any 5-mans. So we'll only likely see new scenarios along with the raids.

I really don't enjoy scenarios...
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Teranoid » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:31 am

Then don't do them? After I finished the achieves I haven't ran a single one because they're great the first few times and a chore otherwise.

Scenarios are far from a great way to gear up for anything and I can't imagine it getting any better as the patch goes along.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:56 am

Teranoid wrote:Then don't do them? After I finished the achieves I haven't ran a single one because they're great the first few times and a chore otherwise.

Scenarios are far from a great way to gear up for anything and I can't imagine it getting any better as the patch goes along.


Never said that I did them, just said I don't enjoy them. I think I've only done 5 total scenario runs, including the Theremore event at 85.

LFR + dailies is still the best way to gear up outside of raiding, as long as you don't have 1000+ lesser coins.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:17 am

halabar wrote:I really don't enjoy scenarios...


Not even the one with the bombing run?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby beornus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:20 am

that one is a bear if you have 3 clothies like I always seem to get when I do the bombing scenario, forget the name
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:01 pm

Passionario wrote:
halabar wrote:I really don't enjoy scenarios...


Not even the one with the bombing run?


Never done that one, and there are too many dailies already that are bombing runs of some sort. As long as I have a need for the lesser coins, it's LFR and dailies to cap (plus raiding otherwise).
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:37 pm

I use scenarios for extra valor while waiting in queues for other things. They're fairly simple and fast, and it beats standing around earning zero valor while waiting in a 40 minute LFR queue.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:47 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:I use scenarios for extra valor while waiting in queues for other things. They're fairly simple and fast, and it beats standing around earning zero valor while waiting in a 40 minute LFR queue.


Might have to try that if I'm not doing anything, but sofar I'm either tending the farm, doing dailies, or alt-tabbed... :-)
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Flex » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:36 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I use scenarios for extra valor while waiting in queues for other things. They're fairly simple and fast, and it beats standing around earning zero valor while waiting in a 40 minute LFR queue.


Still kinda shocked how little known this method is even with a few blue posters saying that's how it is designed to be used.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:52 am

Yeah, best thing is queue scenario, dungeon, LFR, then do all three in a row with no waiting.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby econ21 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:42 pm

I disliked the idea of scenarios when they came out - I think Theramore may not have been a good advert; it seems significantly longer than most of the others. But as fillers in a LFR queue or just a way to grind VPs, I like them. Dailies can put you to sleep (after having done them so many times to get exalted with everyone) while 5-mans can be a bit stressy. Scenarios are halfway between - enough interaction to mean you stay awake, but no risk of drama. With double VP for the first of the day, they seem time efficient ways of grinding VPs. If you do one scenario a day, run each LFR and do some normal raids, you are likely to be close to vp capped.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:27 am

As of yesterday, Elegon hotfixes were still not applied on EU side.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:05 am

econ21 wrote:I disliked the idea of scenarios when they came out - I think Theramore may not have been a good advert; it seems significantly longer than most of the others. But as fillers in a LFR queue or just a way to grind VPs, I like them. Dailies can put you to sleep (after having done them so many times to get exalted with everyone) while 5-mans can be a bit stressy. Scenarios are halfway between - enough interaction to mean you stay awake, but no risk of drama. With double VP for the first of the day, they seem time efficient ways of grinding VPs. If you do one scenario a day, run each LFR and do some normal raids, you are likely to be close to vp capped.


Once a shat-touched is acquired on my spriest, might give them a go.. hunter still needs too much LFR gear to bother with scenarios yet.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Zalaria » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:17 am

halabar wrote:Once a shat-touched is acquired on my spriest, might give them a go.. hunter still needs too much LFR gear to bother with scenarios yet.

That seems backward to me. Scenarios are pre-LFR, though they can help with boredom while waiting for LFR and heroic queues.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:27 am

I think the thing is "Getting VP from scenarios is a waste of my "alt-tab" time, as I need to run LFRs a lot anyway"
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