Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Newsom » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:26 pm

Spirit Kings normal is extremely easy, so I can definitely see people getting stuck on Elegon where you actually have to pay attention to mechanics.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:03 pm

PsiVen wrote:Treckie probably doesn't even remember the normal modes of these fights :P

Spirit Kings is bar-none the easiest boss in the instance, while Elegon has a series of DPS and coordination checks involved. I'm a little surprised that those who get stuck on Elegon don't also tend to get stuck on Will due to low DPS, but with LFR+ gear 4/6 MSV normal is easy enough that casual raids will get there with little effort. Elegon is simply the first challenge.


It's also a burst dps check. After we finally got past Elegon, we one-shot Will. Getting 4 sets of sparks down was the challenge, we were hitting the enrage.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:27 am

Treck wrote:my point was more or less that no guild gets past spirit kings and then struggle on elegon, and if you take 3/6 without problem elegon shouldnt be an issue. it might be true that its a step up from the other 3, but once you gets past elegon, you got quite the big step up to the next fight.
I cant see guilds beeing stuck on elegon more than SK/Will

According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.
Worldie wrote:Still, dumbing down the fight instead of having people realize they need a minimum of skill to defeat the encounter... I thought LFR was for the random disorganized pugs, and Normal for organized guilds with some skill, but I might be wrong there.


"Some skill", indeed. Not "perfect skill".

Obviously, Normal should not allow one to disregard entire fight mechanics the way LFR does (tanking all Stone Guard together, never using Gara'jal's spirit totem, killing Elegon's protectors on the sparkly floor, etc.), but it should have enough margin of error to allow for an occasional mistake or two. Forcing a wipe because you accidentally popped a Cobalt Mine outside of relevant petrification, ate a single Devastating Arc or mistimed a Protector kill by 1.5 seconds is for Heroics.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:36 am

Spawning a protector right on top of a transition is hardly a wipe, though. Unless you get like, 4 adds on first p1, that just means the dps is plainly not enough for the fight.

I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:24 am

Worldie wrote:Spawning a protector right on top of a transition is hardly a wipe, though. Unless you get like, 4 adds on first p1, that just means the dps is plainly not enough for the fight.

I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.


Look again at the wipe numbers quoted above. Clearly there was an issue on the fight, and Blizz felt that it was time to push some people further along.

Remember that there's a patch coming, they want people to progress a bit more.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:11 am

And honestly, the damage in P3 wasn't THAT bad. If you could get through to P3 without losing people or too much time, you got surprised the first and maybe second time around, but once you had an idea of what was coming in, you'd just breeze past it.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:08 am

Yeah, getting through the transitions was the hard bit; the final phase is a pushover.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:16 am

Sagara wrote:And honestly, the damage in P3 wasn't THAT bad. If you could get through to P3 without losing people or too much time, you got surprised the first and maybe second time around, but once you had an idea of what was coming in, you'd just breeze past it.

Pretty much this. The first time we hit P3 we had maybe 3 people alive and they quickly fell over. The second time we hit P3 the only thing we lost was a single tank. I was really surprised by this because the thing I recall most hearing is about how many 1% wipes everyone was having on this fight (anecdotal, of course). Admittedly, we are super late on a kill (blah blah attendance blah blah) and have amassed a lot more gear than the average kills over a month ago so that could be an important factor.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:32 am

Most 1% deaths are due to enrage, because this or that went wrong and implied cumulative loss of DPS (1 extra add in the beginning is critical, as you lose time on both the 4-stack and 8-stack portion.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:31 am

It honestly never occured to me we were talking about normalmode, its been a while now, dont really know what makes the fight "hard", but I remember its a case of "hard mode only" abilities making the fight easier (LoS thingy)
its surely harder than faceroll spirit kings, and Will isnt that hard of a fight either but shit can go wrong.

Passionario wrote:According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.

What kind of statistics are that? are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?
Elegon is very likely overtuned against the other bosses on normalmode, but I wouldnt say killing a boss that takes 3-5 tries to be a worthy boss progressing.
This isnt meant to be read as an elitistic tone btw
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:24 pm

Treck wrote:It honestly never occured to me we were talking about normalmode, its been a while now, dont really know what makes the fight "hard", but I remember its a case of "hard mode only" abilities making the fight easier (LoS thingy)
its surely harder than faceroll spirit kings, and Will isnt that hard of a fight either but shit can go wrong.

Passionario wrote:According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.

What kind of statistics are that? are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?
Elegon is very likely overtuned against the other bosses on normalmode, but I wouldnt say killing a boss that takes 3-5 tries to be a worthy boss progressing.
This isnt meant to be read as an elitistic tone btw


Fair point. But, as the stats suggest, for normalmode it becomes a bit of a cockblock. The issue is simply coordination and having the burst dps to get 4 cycles of sparks down.

Look at it this way, it's the first fight that requires individual responsibility in a dps check. You can't as easily carry a weak dps in the fight. (I'll admit I had problems as a spriest getting the damage rolling).

Finally, Blizz knows where people are stuck on "progression" and they have a patch coming, and they want people moving on into HoF and Terrace.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:44 pm

I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Worldie wrote:I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*


meh... I could see a bit of a nerf coming on Galergawhatever (big bug) and we'll have to see on fights after that. The bug is the next "cockblock".

But I don't see why you are so concerned about it. If it is the older tier, better that it's rolled back some, and still relevant?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:55 pm

I am a person with many alts. I have a lot of interest in knowing what the next route to gear up a char will be.

I rather be able to PuG through t14, than having to just ... farm heroics again! and again! and again!
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:29 pm

Worldie wrote:I am a person with many alts. I have a lot of interest in knowing what the next route to gear up a char will be.


Then if you are leveling a feral or guardian next, see my note in the memo thread...
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