Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:01 am

They just nerfed normal mode Elegon - hard.

Elegon

In the normal mode version of this encounter, Cosmic Sparks will deal less melee damage, Elegon will now use Materialize Protector less often, and the Overloaded effect that Elegon gains when an Empyreal Focus is destroyed now grants significantly less haste.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fetzie » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:16 am

From what I've heard and seen, that encounter has been blocking progression for a lot of people, nerfs were inevitable IMO.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:31 am

Elegon? How is that a progress block?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fetzie » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:34 am

For one thing, the DPS check - if you get the 3rd and 4th elemental adds in the 100-85 and 85-50 boss damage phases you will most likely hit the hard enrage, if you don't die earlier.
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:05 am

Not falling down is hard.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fetzie » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:13 am

That too. Show a raider a way to fall to his/her deaths and they turn into a lemming.
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bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:38 pm

The hotfixes don't appear to be live in the EU. We were still getting a 3rd add close to the phase change.

(We're only stuck on Elegon because we haven't had a chance to work on it, with low attendance. We got very close, I'm certain we'll kill it tomorrow. 2nd phase seems like it'll be a pushover if we get into it with everyone alive.)
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nooska » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:42 am

Last phase may be an issue the first 2 or 3 times for the healers (at leats if its a 10) as everyone suddenly requires more healing.

Have you tried leaving a couple of dps on Elegon while the rest takes the boss (we left me, BM hunter - too much dps lost from pet moving - and one of our warlocks on Elegon (while dotting up the add if he could reach it) and actually started being too fast - pushing draw power before the second add was down.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:23 am

We had it down to 2 adds first time we were in there; think our dps was just a little lower this week.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:07 pm

Treck wrote:Elegon? How is that a progress block?


It was. My guild was stuck there for a few weeks. If you looked at wowprogress, you would see guilds stuck at 4/6, and a lot of them stacking there, after which they quickly went to 6/6 2/6, and started stacking up there... >.>
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:41 pm

halabar wrote:
Treck wrote:Elegon? How is that a progress block?


It was. My guild was stuck there for a few weeks. If you looked at wowprogress, you would see guilds stuck at 4/6, and a lot of them stacking there, after which they quickly went to 6/6 2/6, and started stacking up there... >.>

Still, dumbing down the fight instead of having people realize they need a minimum of skill to defeat the encounter... I thought LFR was for the random disorganized pugs, and Normal for organized guilds with some skill, but I might be wrong there.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:34 pm

my point was more or less that no guild gets past spirit kings and then struggle on elegon, and if you take 3/6 without problem elegon shouldnt be an issue. it might be true that its a step up from the other 3, but once you gets past elegon, you got quite the big step up to the next fight.
I cant see guilds beeing stuck on elegon more than SK/Will
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:43 pm

I'm going to guess, since Spirit Kings and Will of the Emperor normal are very easy fights, that you're thinking of Heroic and not Normal - these nerfs are on Normal mode only.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby PsiVen » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:10 pm

Treckie probably doesn't even remember the normal modes of these fights :P

Spirit Kings is bar-none the easiest boss in the instance, while Elegon has a series of DPS and coordination checks involved. I'm a little surprised that those who get stuck on Elegon don't also tend to get stuck on Will due to low DPS, but with LFR+ gear 4/6 MSV normal is easy enough that casual raids will get there with little effort. Elegon is simply the first challenge.

To me it makes some sense to nerf Elegon normal mode just to widen the gap from heroic mode which was until this hotfix essentially the same fight at a higher gear level. Now the add spawn timing, pillar timing, and spark tanking should be non-issues on normal mode.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:17 pm

Just to add, we killed this today with much better dps than yesterday, and I'm still pretty sure that the hotfixes have not been applied EU side. For one thing, my BigWigs timers for add spawns were still dead on.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Newsom » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:26 pm

Spirit Kings normal is extremely easy, so I can definitely see people getting stuck on Elegon where you actually have to pay attention to mechanics.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:03 pm

PsiVen wrote:Treckie probably doesn't even remember the normal modes of these fights :P

Spirit Kings is bar-none the easiest boss in the instance, while Elegon has a series of DPS and coordination checks involved. I'm a little surprised that those who get stuck on Elegon don't also tend to get stuck on Will due to low DPS, but with LFR+ gear 4/6 MSV normal is easy enough that casual raids will get there with little effort. Elegon is simply the first challenge.


It's also a burst dps check. After we finally got past Elegon, we one-shot Will. Getting 4 sets of sparks down was the challenge, we were hitting the enrage.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:27 am

Treck wrote:my point was more or less that no guild gets past spirit kings and then struggle on elegon, and if you take 3/6 without problem elegon shouldnt be an issue. it might be true that its a step up from the other 3, but once you gets past elegon, you got quite the big step up to the next fight.
I cant see guilds beeing stuck on elegon more than SK/Will

According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.
Worldie wrote:Still, dumbing down the fight instead of having people realize they need a minimum of skill to defeat the encounter... I thought LFR was for the random disorganized pugs, and Normal for organized guilds with some skill, but I might be wrong there.


"Some skill", indeed. Not "perfect skill".

Obviously, Normal should not allow one to disregard entire fight mechanics the way LFR does (tanking all Stone Guard together, never using Gara'jal's spirit totem, killing Elegon's protectors on the sparkly floor, etc.), but it should have enough margin of error to allow for an occasional mistake or two. Forcing a wipe because you accidentally popped a Cobalt Mine outside of relevant petrification, ate a single Devastating Arc or mistimed a Protector kill by 1.5 seconds is for Heroics.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:36 am

Spawning a protector right on top of a transition is hardly a wipe, though. Unless you get like, 4 adds on first p1, that just means the dps is plainly not enough for the fight.

I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:24 am

Worldie wrote:Spawning a protector right on top of a transition is hardly a wipe, though. Unless you get like, 4 adds on first p1, that just means the dps is plainly not enough for the fight.

I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.


Look again at the wipe numbers quoted above. Clearly there was an issue on the fight, and Blizz felt that it was time to push some people further along.

Remember that there's a patch coming, they want people to progress a bit more.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:11 am

And honestly, the damage in P3 wasn't THAT bad. If you could get through to P3 without losing people or too much time, you got surprised the first and maybe second time around, but once you had an idea of what was coming in, you'd just breeze past it.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:08 am

Yeah, getting through the transitions was the hard bit; the final phase is a pushover.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:16 am

Sagara wrote:And honestly, the damage in P3 wasn't THAT bad. If you could get through to P3 without losing people or too much time, you got surprised the first and maybe second time around, but once you had an idea of what was coming in, you'd just breeze past it.

Pretty much this. The first time we hit P3 we had maybe 3 people alive and they quickly fell over. The second time we hit P3 the only thing we lost was a single tank. I was really surprised by this because the thing I recall most hearing is about how many 1% wipes everyone was having on this fight (anecdotal, of course). Admittedly, we are super late on a kill (blah blah attendance blah blah) and have amassed a lot more gear than the average kills over a month ago so that could be an important factor.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:32 am

Most 1% deaths are due to enrage, because this or that went wrong and implied cumulative loss of DPS (1 extra add in the beginning is critical, as you lose time on both the 4-stack and 8-stack portion.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:31 am

It honestly never occured to me we were talking about normalmode, its been a while now, dont really know what makes the fight "hard", but I remember its a case of "hard mode only" abilities making the fight easier (LoS thingy)
its surely harder than faceroll spirit kings, and Will isnt that hard of a fight either but shit can go wrong.

Passionario wrote:According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.

What kind of statistics are that? are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?
Elegon is very likely overtuned against the other bosses on normalmode, but I wouldnt say killing a boss that takes 3-5 tries to be a worthy boss progressing.
This isnt meant to be read as an elitistic tone btw
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