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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:45 am

Fridmarr wrote:Many, if not all of these major violent acts have a decent amount of premeditation with them so I'm not sure delaying access to a gun would have them rethink things, at most it might delay the inevitable. And that's ignoring the fact that you probably can't significantly reduce access to guns with gun control laws here anyhow. I just don't know how you make it so folks can't get a gun, given that almost half the households in the US already have a gun.


No I agree, while maybe in some cases strict gun laws might reduce mass murder events in any case statistically these events are so rare I don't think you can make much of an argument out of them in the first place, it's more of a vehicle to start a discussion. Like serious aircraft accidents these events are rare and if you take into account this rarity they are not as significant in the first place.

My opposition to liberal gun laws are mostly based on the (very much stronger) link between suicide and gun ownership, and (at least in Switzerland) the link between homicide in a domestic setting (IE wife/husband argument getting out of control). I think however the argument is being waged from both sides with far more drama than is necessary as neither strict nor liberal gun laws would really have any effect on most people's day to day lives.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:12 am

I don't agree that hindering access to guns would only delay the event. People who snap in China aren't taking their time getting guns, they're grabbing a knife instead. And a knife is less dangerous than a gun. There are still deaths, but less than half as many.

Premediated acts like the Oklahoma Bomb, Utøya or the school principal who rigged his school with bombs over an entire year are much harder to stop, but are also much rarer.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:59 am

the other thing is in China, there is NO personal firearms
no private owned guns = no access = why bother trying to get one?

yes, that is a case for more control
but with out society in the US, and the ease of buying things smuggled in through mexico, it will probably never be that difficult to buy a gun if you want it bad enough
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:02 am

But that's true of anything - if you want it bad enough, you'll figure out a way to achieve what you want.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:19 am

very true...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 am

Paxen wrote:I don't agree that hindering access to guns would only delay the event. People who snap in China aren't taking their time getting guns, they're grabbing a knife instead. And a knife is less dangerous than a gun. There are still deaths, but less than half as many.

Premediated acts like the Oklahoma Bomb, Utøya or the school principal who rigged his school with bombs over an entire year are much harder to stop, but are also much rarer.


The events in China are brutal, and bloody, and have been happening at a far "faster" clip than Than people realize. Since 2010.

  • On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping
  • 4-28-10: Chen Kangbing, at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher.
  • 4-29-10: Xu Yuyuan went to Zhongxin Kindergarten and stabbed 28 students, two teachers and one security guard most of the Taixing students were 4 years old
  • 4-30-10: Wang Yonglai used a hammer to cause head injury to preschool children in Weifang
  • 5-12-10Wu Huanming, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010;
  • May 18, 2010 at Hainan Institute of Science and Technology, vocational college in Haikou, Hainan, more than 10 men charged into a dormitory wielding knives around 2:30 am; after attacking the security guard and disabling security cameras, 9 students were injured, 1 seriously. The local men attacked the dorm in an act of revenge and retaliation against college students following conflict the previous day at an off-campus food stall in which 4 students were injured, for a total of 13
  • 8-4-10: Fang Jiantang slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong
  • 8-2011: Eight children, all aged four or five, were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed them with a box-cutter
  • 9-2011 a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi,[19] Henan by 30-year-old Wang Hongbin with an axe.[20] Another child and an adult were seriously wounded but survived.
  • 12-14-12: Man attacks and injures 22 children and teacher outside of school


And these included fatalities. The problem is, the Chinese media has incredibly strict guidelines about what they are able to report, including death.

I guess my opinion is as follows:
Mass violence, is mass violence. It's a horrific tragedy. It's an act that leaves us wondering the reasons why it happened. From the outside, for those unaffected by the trauma, We are able to "grade" the level of violence, based on a body count, or number injured. But to those involved in the tragedy, those who experience the tragedy, those who lose family members to the tragedy, or suffer personally at the hands of it, there is little solace in knowing that "well, at least you were just attacked by a knife! Thank god you weren't Shot! Or, Well, I'm sorry that your child was hacked to death with a hatchet, at least they weren't shot to death!

Dead is dead. Violence is violence. While a gun may "seem" to make the violence "easier" what I've assembled here is a list of attacks on people, at schools in another country. None of these attacks contained a gun. To the people who were affected, there is no "relief" for knowing that they were stabbed, and dismembered, or bludgeoned, rather than being shot.

Gun, Knife, Hammer, Hatchet, to those involved, I'm not sure that the implement of death or injury matters. It only matters that it ends. Gun Control, while a piece of the equation, isn't the only thing that needs to happen.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:58 pm

Comparing statistics from a country of over a billion to one a quarter of the size... Seems legit.

Guns are far more efficient weapons for killing people than knives are. Hence the transition from swords and bows to firearms for armed combat. Take the numbers and multiply them if guns were involved.

The murder rate in the US is around 4x higher than the norm for western countries, being around 4.2 per 1000 deaths as opposed to around 1 per 1000. That may be due to other factors than the availability of guns, but one has to wonder what is in the water over there if the availability of guns is not at all a factor.

If guns are a contributing factor, well, maybe that's something worth looking at.

From my standpoint, I am happy with people owning hunting rifles and shotguns. Hunting rifles being accurate single-fire weapons designed for sport use are alright because hunting is a legitimate sport and has traditionally been a necessity for food and could be so again in the event of some catastrophe. I'm OK with shotguns for bird hunting and personal defense. The shotgun is the most-feared close-quarters weapon out there, so is ideal for home defense.

I'm not OK with handguns and assault rifles. No one needs to go semi-automatic against a deer. Those are for people. Handguns, in the general sense, are not sufficiently accurate for hunting and are valued for concealability and close-quarters combat. I don't believe the general population needs guns designed for use against people.

I know that criteria doesn't eliminate gun crime. The wacko up in the clocktower will be using a hunting rifle, not an AR. But it would cut down on some crime, and possibly lessen the effect. Would as many people have died in Newton if the killer had to re-cycle and re-aim the weapon after each shot?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:38 pm

10 incidents over 2 years in a country thats 1/6th the worlds population, seem to indicate the other way from what you are trying to infer- thats, downscaled to US size, would be 2 incidents since 2010 - total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Well clearly guns contribute, they aren't the cause, but they are an extremely effective tool and that can not be denied.

Handguns are used regularly for hunting, a lot of folks carry both. It's a lot easier to wield in tight situations, in the brush, disabled folks etc and is plenty accurate at those ranges. Hunting rifles are not single shot, they need to be actioned (pump, lever, bolt) to shoot again. That would certainly matter in a combat situation, but it means a lot less, a lot less in a room full of 6 year olds. Just keep slamming in clips and you're still firing at fast rate, sadly I don't think the death toll would be any different at all. Also, hunting rifles are often of considerably higher caliber, so require less shots for mortal wounds on average.

That said, I don't have a problem with limiting access to semi automatic rifles. Unless you can get the existing guns off the street though, there's no way I could support a ban on handguns. That's really where the problems of gun control exists, unless you are going to do the nearly impossible (and potentially unconstitutional) task of confiscating everyone's existing guns, it will not have a large affect.

Aside from the culture issue, you could perhaps attack the issue with technological safety advancements and require their use by law. Even fund their implementation with tax dollars. I don't really see another way, banning and restricting just don't seem viable.

Boyfriend, I agree with that. If I remember right, the majority of homicides by gun are suicides.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:54 pm

Koatanga wrote:Comparing statistics from a country of over a billion to one a quarter of the size... Seems legit.


Sort of like the mass movement recently to compare the violence in America to countries like UK, Sweden, Germany and the like. I'm not saying it's perfect. But I am saying that it shows that just outright banning guns, is not going to solve the problem. Instead of statistically trying to correlate the data, you should be looking at the underlying connection that China, and the US share. A horrid, abysmal, attitude towards Mental Health Care.

It also, completely discounts the rest of my post. You know, the part where I'm saying that mass violence is mass violence, and that for the people involved in the crime, they aren't going to feel better because they were stabbed, or beat with a hammer instead of shot.

EDIT: Nooska, If we want to correlate data, we should also then look at USA VS Norway over the same amount of time, and find out how many more acts of mass violence per capita they have had. Their population is just under 5,000,000, roughly 1.6% of the US population. This is why my post wasn't about correlating data, but talking about how even without guns, China is still experiencing mass violence, and making the correlation to Mental Health Care.

Guns are far more efficient weapons for killing people than knives are. Hence the transition from swords and bows to firearms for armed combat. Take the numbers and multiply them if guns were involved.


I never argued differently.

The murder rate in the US is around 4x higher than the norm for western countries, being around 4.2 per 1000 deaths as opposed to around 1 per 1000. That may be due to other factors than the availability of guns, but one has to wonder what is in the water over there if the availability of guns is not at all a factor.


I agree. It's higher. It's a good deal higher. It's a problem. And I've never said anything to the contrary. Specifically considering that some countries, have very lax gun laws, yet have very low gun crime. I think, it speaks to what I talked about 2 posts (last page) back. Culture. Specifically, America's bloody love of violence.

If guns are a contributing factor, well, maybe that's something worth looking at.


I agree. There are things that we should do. But I don't believe that Gun Control is going to reign in mass acts of violence. At least not completely. and not on its own. Any Gun Control that does come out of the tragedies of 2012 needs to go hand in hand with increasing the Mental Health Care that is readily available to citizens.

From my standpoint, I am happy with people owning hunting rifles and shotguns. Hunting rifles being accurate single-fire weapons designed for sport use are alright because hunting is a legitimate sport and has traditionally been a necessity for food and could be so again in the event of some catastrophe. I'm OK with shotguns for bird hunting and personal defense. The shotgun is the most-feared close-quarters weapon out there, so is ideal for home defense.

I'm not OK with handguns and assault rifles. No one needs to go semi-automatic against a deer. Those are for people. Handguns, in the general sense, are not sufficiently accurate for hunting and are valued for concealability and close-quarters combat. I don't believe the general population needs guns designed for use against people.


And this is where I get a little shitty, and irritated. The above quote to me is not accurate, and displays either a deliberate bias to prove a point, or an ignorance to the use of firearms. Based on comments later in your post, I'm guessing it's the latter.

I guess I should stop hunting with my Handgun. It's not sufficiently accurate. I'll remember that the next time I decide that I'm going to go small game hunting. Yep... Handgun. Not sufficiently accurate. Only valued for concealability and for use in close quarters combat. The only type of hunting that matters is for deer anyway. Hell, I guess we should all sell bows and crossbows as well. Since, Guns are far more efficient at killing. What's the point of using a bow?

I'll also remember that when I go fishing. Nope. Don't need that handgun. I'll deal with the snakes, coyote, and occasional bobcat with... a stick. Surely, I want to get close enough to them that I can poke at them with a stick.... Or take my rifle / Shotgun with me every time I go fishing in the wilderness. Yep. No need for something smaller, that's handled the job just fine for 18 years. Nope. I'll take my .12ga with me when I go fishing. I'm sure that wont have any repercussions.

I know that criteria doesn't eliminate gun crime. The wacko up in the clocktower will be using a hunting rifle, not an AR. But it would cut down on some crime, and possibly lessen the effect. Would as many people have died in Newton if the killer had to re-cycle and re-aim the weapon after each shot?


I guess I'm missing something here. Do you believe that all high powered non assault rifles are single shot, non semi auto? That there is no hunting rifle that is semi auto?

Is my .22 Hunting Rifle an assault rifle to you?
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Because, from what I'm reading, you'd classify this as an assault rifle, since it's Semi Automatic.

What about my dad's Shotgun? Is this an Assault Weapon to you?
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This is the gun I bagged my first Deer with. Also. Semi Auto


What about this? This is a hunting rifle. While not semi auto, you never stop aiming to charge the weapon.
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And this? High Powered Rifle, a hunting Rifle. Also, Semi Automatic.
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People think that the only things that are Semi Automatic are either assault weapons, or Handguns. This just isn't the case. People have been hunting with realistic, semi automatic weaponry for over a century. The next to last picture, is one of the most iconic, most celebrated, rifles in the history of the WORLD. It was the weapon of choice during multiple Wars in the 19th cenutry, with settlers moving west, and with men who were, and are, hunting to put food on the table for their families.

Semi Auto is NOT the problem, and the idea that all semi auto weapons are the problem is a fallacy. One of the real problems, is magazine capacity, and the lax gun laws in some states (Louisiana, and Texas spring to mind) that allow normal citizens to own AUTOMATIC weapons, with a license.

For magazine capacity,
The first gun I listed is a .22 caliber Rifle. 5 round capacity
The second gun I listed, is a semi automatic Browning .12 gauge shotgun. Normally, 3-5 round capacity. Even Pump shotguns are rarely more than 5 round capacity.
The next gun I listed, is 30/30 Winchester. Most hold 5-7, plus 1 in the chamber.
The final gun I listed, is a .30-06 (30 ot 6), and normally holds 5 shots.

Would as many people have died in Newtown had he had to re-cycle and re-aim his weapon? Well... Well, if he were using a shotgun? Yes. I'm willing to wager that even more people would have died had he gone in there with a Pump Action 12ga Shotgun. The destructive force of a shotgun of that gauge in an enclosed area like a schoolroom would have been catastrophic. Instead of aiming at people, he would have had to just vaguely point. Once you have been hit, you are a far slower moving target and the spray pattern can be intense. as grisly as that is, it's the truth.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:07 pm

Sorry, I thought we were talking about guns, not bows or sticks or fishing poles or traps or blowguns or boomerangs or darts or grenades or tanks or helicopters or rockets or catapults or trebuchets or ballistae any other bloody implement that could possibly be used to hunt something.

I don't know how you took from my statements that handguns were *only* valued for concealment and use against humans, except that you chose to bias my statement by inserting the word "only".

And I was referring to handguns "in general", not sport pistols designed for hunting. Can we stipulate for the sake of argument that there is a difference between a precision handgun and a saturday night special?

I thought I made it sufficiently clear that I am OK with guns specifically designed for sport to be used for sport, but I guess in your fervent quest to Prove Me Wrong, you either ignored that or simply didn't get it.

Is this your preferred choice for a hunting weapon? No doubt you can pick off squirrels from 100 yards with this accurate bad-boy. Or is this sort of thing better for fitting into a coat pocket while robbing a liquor store? Which task do you reckon it is better suited for - you're a gun expert and all, so enlighten me.

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:20 pm

Shoju wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Comparing statistics from a country of over a billion to one a quarter of the size... Seems legit.


Sort of like the mass movement recently to compare the violence in America to countries like UK, Sweden, Germany and the like. I'm not saying it's perfect. But I am saying that it shows that just outright banning guns, is not going to solve the problem. Instead of statistically trying to correlate the data, you should be looking at the underlying connection that China, and the US share. A horrid, abysmal, attitude towards Mental Health Care.


Of course you can compare different countries based on what restrictions they have implemented, you just have to correct for population frirst of all.
Correcting for culture is another kettle of fish.

When comparing violence in the US to european countries, usually the comparison is made with a number of countries whose population is roughly similar and who have roughly similar gun restrictions, though even then, it is slightly flawed, in that you can only downscale, you cant scale up (otherwise Norway is way more violent than the US - population 5 million to the US 315 million; scaled up to US size last year had 63 massive violence incidents with 504 bombing casualties and 4,347 shooting deaths - just counting those 63 incidents)

This also goes to show that you have to eliminate the outliers if you want any relevant comparison (and that you have to do on both sides).

YEs, hunting weapons are serious weapons, and should be under some sort of regulation - at minimum that requiring a completed test showing you know how to handle the gun and have some sort of accuracy - this is not solely a gun control issue, but as a hunter myself, just as much an issue of making sure game isn't grazed or left with buck in them because of a bad shot.
As for using guns for sport - why shouldn't that be regulated to hell and back? As I said earlier in the other thread (before friday), when did it become a personal liberty to use deadly and dangerous weapons for fun (second amendment contents aside - it does not say anything about fun I will point out though) - what if I want to use rocket launchers, or artillery becaus eI think thats fun - shouldn't that also be regulated to heck and back, to make sure my fun doesn't reduce someone elses liberties (or health/life as we are talking lethal weapons here).
What if I found it fun deplying chemical weapons? biological weapons? nuclear weapons - just the small tactical ones?

If you favor regulations on that, then you favor regulations on weapons - what kind and where to draw the line is all a matter of degres after that, no? If so, gun control is not only okay, its necessary ("even" in your opinion), and when we discover something is making a dangerous situation lethal (or a lethal situation more lethal/collateraly lethal), of course we should restrict any access that could prevent that otherwise I want my tactical nukes.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:57 pm

Here are the statistics. If the source is insufficiently accurate, please cite your own.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... rtbl11.xls

Total number of murder victims: 12,996
Total by firearms: 8775
Total by handguns: 6009
Total by rifles: 358
Total by shotguns: 373
Unspecified type of gun: 2035

Knives: 1704
Trebuchets: 0
Ocelots: 0
Sharks with laser beams mounted on their foreheads: 0
Mutant Sea Bass (ill-tempered): 1*

*unconfirmed

Handguns are by far the most commonly used weapon in murders in the US. Is that not sufficient argument to do something about handguns?

"It's so hard to do". Actually it's not. If handguns are banned except where allowed by collector/hunter permit, then people can turn in their guns or apply for a collector/hunter permit if the weapon qualifies.

"If handguns are banned only criminals will have them". Well, it makes it pretty bloody easy to identify criminals then, doesn't it? They'll be the ones with the handguns.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:14 pm

Interesting how scale "works" there.

Sure it's a matter of degrees, but it's mostly pretty easy to parse. For instance, rocket launchers and the like are not by definition discriminate. So that sort of thing is fairly easy. When you start looking a various rifles and such though you are really splitting hairs. A target rifle isn't more lethal than a hunting weapon, it's very hard to even make a distinction between the two, and they can be used interchangeably. Then you have the second amendment and legal precedent around that to deal with. I don't know how you could possibly justify heavy regulations on one and not the other. And how would that do any good, since folks would just use the other?

Guns haven't become lethal, they were always lethal. With nothing new you have to overcome that precedent, and I really don't know how you would. I mean revolvers date back almost 200 years. Handguns are by far the most common gun used in crimes. Assault rifles are not used much at all. Then you'd have to go about rounding up millions upon millions of weapons...good luck. It's simply not a realistic approach at the moment.

Hunting and guns are not directly linked here. In PA (at least when I was a kid, it might be different now), anyone over the age of 12 could getting a hunting license if they completely a hunter's safety course. That didn't make it legal for you to buy a gun, it just made it legal for you to carry one while hunting. You could make such a course required to buy a gun I guess, and that might cut down on accidents, but I don't think it would affect crime stats at all. Most guns used in these sort of mass shootings are legally acquired.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:16 pm

Koatanga wrote:Here are the statistics. If the source is insufficiently accurate, please cite your own.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... rtbl11.xls

Total number of murder victims: 12,996
Total by firearms: 8775
Total by handguns: 6009
Total by rifles: 358
Total by shotguns: 373
Unspecified type of gun: 2035

Knives: 1704
Trebuchets: 0
Ocelots: 0
Sharks with laser beams mounted on their foreheads: 0
Mutant Sea Bass (ill-tempered): 1*

*unconfirmed

Handguns are by far the most commonly used weapon in murders in the US. Is that not sufficient argument to do something about handguns?

"It's so hard to do". Actually it's not. If handguns are banned except where allowed by collector/hunter permit, then people can turn in their guns or apply for a collector/hunter permit if the weapon qualifies.

"If handguns are banned only criminals will have them". Well, it makes it pretty bloody easy to identify criminals then, doesn't it? They'll be the ones with the handguns.

Well that's pretty retarded since they aren't going to go around brandishing them. Besides, when did "identifying" the criminals become remotely difficult.

Banning handguns would require you to collect all guns...unrealistic. It would also require a constitutional amendment...unrealistic. The hunter permit allowance makes any such ban a joke anyhow.

EDIT: You're going to be much better off making laws that work under a system where people have guns, because half of US households already have a gun, it's the reality, and it's not changing any time soon.
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