Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:57 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Well, these massacres don't routinely occur in Europe because God is present in public schools. Oh, wait....

Also, what does god need with a public school? or a starship with that matter?

If anything... if you want to go that route, shouldn't it start at home?


Uuuuuuuuuh.... That's weird... Someone added God to our schools and I wasn't even aware of it???
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:00 pm

Sagara wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Well, these massacres don't routinely occur in Europe because God is present in public schools. Oh, wait....

Also, what does god need with a public school? or a starship with that matter?

If anything... if you want to go that route, shouldn't it start at home?


Uuuuuuuuuh.... That's weird... Someone added God to our schools and I wasn't even aware of it???


That's my point! Hence the "Oh, wait..." as in, there is no God in european schools.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:19 pm

Aaarrrgh!!! The American Family Association doubled down on Huckabee!
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/f ... e-he-not-w
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:54 pm

Every time disaster strikes, a religious person is forced to confront the question:

"If God is powerful and benevolent, then why did She allow this tragedy to happen?"

Their answer to that question will tell you a lot about that particular person and their faith.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:20 am

Passionario wrote:Every time disaster strikes, a religious person is forced to confront the question:

"If God is powerful and benevolent, then why did She allow this tragedy to happen?"

Their answer to that question will tell you a lot about that particular person and their faith.


Image
Now, this pisses me off...
Image

Cuz it boils down to the Problem of Evil if you question it like that...

Now, while I am not a religious person (really? what gave it away?) - this article seems helpful when trying to explain children stuff...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily ... 03910.html

And since we're talking about Evil, maybe we should delve deeper into its meaning
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... il-concept

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/ju ... aron-cohen
And yeah, it's by Borat's cousin.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:15 am

Klaudandus wrote:Well, these massacres don't routinely occur in Europe because God is present in public schools. Oh, wait....

Also, what does god need with a public school? or a starship with that matter?

If anything... if you want to go that route, shouldn't it start at home?


YEs.

And I agree, religion is not necessary for morals, but they (should) come along with religion more or less by default.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:17 am

Yeah, but my argument is that its something that should be handled at home, or at church, not in a public school.

I mean, are european schools religious by nature?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:17 pm

People want to ban this and that and seem to forget one thing.

Never underestimate the ability of evil to do evil.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:03 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Image
Now, this pisses me off...


The ultimate counter to this terrible logic is to ask why there is sexual abuse of children in churches.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Zalaria » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:34 pm

This is also a good counter. It's not aimed at the shirt, but the same idea: (linked because it's kinda big).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:40 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:05 pm

Melathys wrote:People want to ban this and that and seem to forget one thing.

Never underestimate the ability of evil to do evil.


This is what irks me. And this isn't directed solely at you Mel, but to all who say "it was evil"

It wasn't evil that perpetrated this horrific act. This was not some terrorist plot to destroy things. This was a 20 year old kid. He suffered from Mental illness. You should read the blog post "I am Adam Lanza's mother", and you should also read the counter point, "You are not Adam Lanza's Mother" I agree with many of the ideas presented in the former, while recognizing some of the shortcomings presented in the latter.

But I fully believe, at this time, with the information available, that Adam Lanza wasn't "Evil". He wasn't "Crazy". He wasn't "Psycho" or "Psychotic". He was ill. But, because he caused some unspeakable horror, we will brand him as all those things, and he will be just another whackjob with a gun, that went out and did something terrible. He will become a caricature, used to speak about why Gun Control is a "now" issue, and why "more people should be armed". His act will be used as an exploitative position for which people can claim that this happened because God isn't in our schools, or because those teachers weren't packing, or because he played too many violent video games, or listened to terrible music.

In the coming months, we will lose the real Adam Lanza. What he was in life, and in the terrible moments leading up to his death, will be lost to political stumping, religious zealotry, and good ol' "Amurikun Freedumbs".

What will be lost, is that this 20 year old kid, was mentally ill. That there was something wrong inside the chemical / electrical makeup of his brain. And somewhere, in the last week or two, something snapped. Something broke him. Something set him off. And instead of receiving the treatment, and health care that he needed, he took up arms, and murdered 27 people. What will be lost, are the details of how it got there. How he was lost, How it all fell apart for him, and how in the end, the help he needed, wasn't there.

America embraces a violent culture. Jim Wright (yes, I'm linking stonekettle station again) already covered that well. We are violent. We praise the Anti-Hero. We love Guns. We love Violence. It's in our Music (not just Rap. I'm looking at you Pumped up Kicks.). In our TV Shows. In our Movies. In our Politics. In our Sports. We love violence. We crave violence. We feed on Violence. Couple that insatiable love for violence, with a mental health ideology that labels it as taboo, as something that doesn't need funding (look at where a ton of cuts happen in our government funded infrastructures, you will find that Mental Health is high on the chopping block) and bad things are going to happen.

In the wake of this tragedy, I've seen terrible things, Like the T-shirt linked, that make me want to vomit. (Thank god for the unfriend function of facebook.) But what I haven't seen enough of, is sensibility. This wasn't evil. Mental Illness isn't "Evil". It's not the devil. It's not the fucking exorcist. It's real. It is indeed terrible, but not for the reasons that you might think.

I'm part of the problem. I love my guns. I love the "Anti-Hero" Punisher type gritty vigilanteism. I love the bad guys. It's a society, and culture thing. What differentiates those who survive in this culture, and don't go gun people down, and those who fall apart in this culture, and do go gun people down, can be tied heavily into our Mental Health (not solely, but a large part of it). And until we stand up and realize that there are changes that need to be made, it wont. We will continue to lose people in horrific, senseless tragedies. We will continue to lose the "real" person behind the crimes, and we will continue to see it happen. Again, and again, and again.

I'm not going to say what changes need to be made. I don't know. I firmly believe that there are some things that could make our culture, and the guns we love more safe. I think that there are things we can do to make sure that the people who need help, receive the help. I think that there are things we can do to make our schools safer. I think there are things we can do to make our culture less obsessed with the violence that we feast on.

But I don't think that removing guns from the society alone will stop it. China, and the 150+ children and teachers who have been assault there this year by men with bladed weapons show me that banning guns alone will not stop senseless tragedies.
I don't think that Mental Health improvements alone will stop it. I do believe that it will help a great deal, but I don't think that it will stop it.
I don't think that banning music, and video games, and other "violent media" will achieve the appropriate outcome either.

But I do know, that if we don't start somewhere, and get the ball rolling, more people will die. It hurts to type those words. It hurts to think about what happened on Friday. I went home, and I hugged my kids tighter than I have in a long time. I'm sure they thought I was weird, or something. I know my oldest did. I walked up, and gave this almost 16 year old, 6' 180lb athlete a big old hug, ruffled his hair, and said "I love you". When you have kids, things like this make you do things like that.


EDIT:
I fixed a typo that made it read as if I were singling out Melathys, when it meant to read as "not just singling out" Mel. My apologies for not catching it before I hit submit.
Last edited by Shoju on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:05 pm

DOUBLE POST NEVERMIND ME>
Last edited by Shoju on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:11 pm

Reminds me of something I saw in one of the latest Castle episode, an exchange between Those Two Guys that went along the lines that yeah, the world is going to hell fast, but every time a family grows, it's brought back a little from there.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:59 pm

You misunderstand the point. These are all premeditated acts. These were acts of evil, there's no other way to classify them. These people would have found a way to accomplish what they did, be it guns, bombs, fire, toxic gas, all are easy enough to make, all can kill great amounts of people.

I fully agree with the argument that the issue of mental health needs to be addressed. and that's why the media is so frustrating to me. I see so many people having the proper debate of mental health, but I've yet to see a single headline mentioning mental health.

Honestly, those calling for firearms bans are simple minded, seeing one problem and one solution. If guns were the problem, I might agree that banning them was the solution, but even then banning them would do little. We can't keep drugs and illegal immigrants out of our nation, firearms would just add more revenue for the cartels to export to the US.
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