SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

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SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:31 am

One thing I've been wondering lately is this: even for single target fights, should I really be using CS over HotR? In terms of pure damage, HotR+nova hits for about 55% of the damage of CS (using the numbers from Theck's MATLAB thread), but HotR should potentially provide double the HPS over CS when using SoI since it can proc off of both the physical hit and the nova hit. Prioritizing HotR over CS would also mean that there is no risk of having a brain fart and forgetting to re-apply weakened blows.

I can't seem to find anything in Theck's thread that indicates the HPS gained by switching full-time to HotR, but I'm sure there must be one. Would this HPS gain offset the DPS loss?
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby daishan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:19 am

Does the nova part of HotR really have a chance to proc SoI?
The tooltip says a chance to heal on _melee_ hit, the nova is holy dmg right?
Interesting idea if the nova can trigger SoI.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:18 am

According to Theck's glyph discussion in the MATLAB thread, yes.

*edit*

That's why we get so much HPS in AOE situations.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby daishan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:33 am

Ah so it does missed that last time I read through the thread.

theckhd wrote:Battle Healer is a new addition this round, thanks to our new-found interest in Seal of Insight tanking. It performs surprisingly well, cranking out about 5k HPS on the raid. Note that this output is going to be relatively low for single-targets, as it only triggers from CS, melees, and SotR. However, it also triggers off of HotR, both the physical portion and everything that the nova hits. So in AoE situations, GoBH can be many times more powerful
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:43 am

You're confusing two different things. Seal of Insight (self-heal) does not proc off of the Nova portion of HotR. Glyph of the Battle Healer (which only heals other players) procs from the Nova portion of HotR. You don't get any additional self-healing by using HotR instead of CS, no matter how many targets you're hitting.

You will generate a little more raid healing with HotR, but on a single target it's not a large enough difference to matter.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Ergil » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:12 am

Are you absolutely positive that the nova part doas not trigger SoI? Because I think that it does as for example I usually pull every mob in the jade temple 5man hc in the library at once und start then obviously bomb them down. There I thin I get SoI proccs up to 300k healing, but while tanking the dogs on hc my average SoI was at 23k healing. In the 5 man hc I did not log so it should not be 300k per heal as I just read my battle text (on screen) and there I think 3 seconds are packed together, but to even get 230k healing (if my vengeance in the 5 man hc ist comparable to my vengeance in mogu hc) i would need to get about 9 proccs in 3 seconds (not 10 because of 15% bonus in 5 man hc), which seems not possible for me.
I do not think it would make a huge difference but it maybe it might be an eextremely easy option to get a little more healing for a minor dps loss.

*edit: Ok could have saved the time writing this^^
I just attacked a raid dummy with HotR and got 4 proccs of SoI, so it does procc of the nova
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Treck » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:54 am

theckhd wrote:You're confusing two different things. Seal of Insight (self-heal) does not proc off of the Nova portion of HotR. Glyph of the Battle Healer (which only heals other players) procs from the Nova portion of HotR. You don't get any additional self-healing by using HotR instead of CS, no matter how many targets you're hitting.

You will generate a little more raid healing with HotR, but on a single target it's not a large enough difference to matter.

No that just isnt true Theck.
SoI clearly scales with the ammount of targets you hit with the Hammer nova, and every hit has a chance (if not guaranteed even) to procc SoI on yourself.
Every single time I use Hammer on wind lord with 300k vengeance I selfheal myself for about 800k with multiple hits (usually around 90k/hit), The selfheal portion does scale with the ammount of targets for sure, just go into Stormstout and try it out yourself, you will do +500k healing on yourself every time you hit that hammer of the righteous.

As for Using hammer over CS on single target, I guess you would be doing more selfhealing, but your damage would go down and your raid healing would go down (altho its hardly that high with CS/hammer if only single target, Shield of the righteous is usually what does most of the raidhealing from the seal in my experience)
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:44 am

It definitely was not working that way on beta (c.f. testing, log has expired unfortunately). However, hopping on live gave me some interesting results (this was cleaving to one additional dummy, 2 targets, no auto-attack):

Code: Select all
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (1601 Overkill)
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Holy. (4679 Overkill)
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Holy. (5148 Overkill)
Your Seal of Insight healed You 4823 Holy.
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (481 Overhealed)
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1404 Overhealed)
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1544 Overhealed)


Code: Select all
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (3411 Overkill) (Critical)
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Holy. (4518 Overkill)
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Holy. (3530 Overkill)
Your Seal of Insight healed You 4824 Holy.
Your Seal of Insight healed You 4823 Holy.
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1023 Overhealed)
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1356 Overhealed)
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1059 Overhealed)


Code: Select all
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Physical. (2205 Overkill)
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Holy. (4556 Overkill)
Your Hammer of the Righteous hit Training Dummy 1 Holy. (3842 Overkill)
Your Seal of Insight healed You 4824 Holy.
Your Seal of Insight healed You 4824 Holy.
Your Seal of Insight healed You 4824 Holy.
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (662 Overhealed)
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1367 Overhealed)
Your Battle Insight healed Syiera 0 Holy. (1153 Overhealed)


The first was more common - roughly about 50% of my attacks only generated one SoI proc, but the sample size is too small to nail the percentage accurately. Other times I was getting 2 or 3, as you can see. All of these were below maximum health, just to make sure it wasn't an overhealing / logging issue. I'm logging a larger data set now just to see if it's a reporting bug with the in-game combat log and filtering.

In any event, something changed somewhere along the line. I'm not sure when, but I'm guessing recently, as this would have shown up when I was testing the Battle Healer glyph, which was on live after the SoT nerf/hotfix.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:17 am

More detailed results: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-e ... details/7/
Filtered log to show only SOI heals and HotR: link

123 HotR casts (246 novas).
1 case of 0 procs (~0.8%) (occurs at 9:45:36.816 in the log)
24 cases of 1 proc (~19.5%)
61 cases of 2 procs (~49.6%)
37 cases of 3 procs (~30.1%)

Weighted average of 2.09 procs per cast (against 2 targets, of course).

SoI should be 15 PPM, which for a 2.6-speed weapon is 15*2.6/60=0.65, or 65% chance to proc. Given that, binomial statistics tell us we should have a ~4.3% chance to see 0 procs, ~23.9% chance of 1 proc, 44.4% chance of 2 procs, and 27.5% chance of 3 procs. Given the small sample size (our confidence interval is only about +/-8.4% with 123 samples), these results seem consistent with what we're observing. So the abnormally high number of single-procs I saw in the smaller data set must have just been statistical variation.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:26 am

Interesting corollary: Against a single target, you have a 12.25% chance of 0 procs, 45.50% chance of 1 proc, and 42.25% chance of 2 procs, for a weighted average of exactly 1.3 procs per cast (compared to 0.65 with CS). So the trade you're considering is the DPS difference (~2695 DPS at 100k Vengeance) vs. the extra SoI healing (~21k heals @ 100k Veng, 65% of that every 4.5 seconds is ~3073 HPS). Both of those obviously scale with Vengeance and haste, so the ratio (about 1:1.15) will remain roughly the same.

I'll be able to provide more accurate single-target numbers once I update the model to handle the HammerNova procs.

<edit> Oops, it's 65% of the SoI healing, not 30% (CS doesn't give 1 proc per cast, it gives 0.65). FixT.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:29 am

Treck wrote:
As for Using hammer over CS on single target, I guess you would be doing more selfhealing, but your damage would go down and your raid healing would go down (altho its hardly that high with CS/hammer if only single target, Shield of the righteous is usually what does most of the raidhealing from the seal in my experience)


SoI scales off AP, not attack damage. Your HotR heals you for the same amount as the CS, except that there is a chance for two procs instead of just one. Raid healing would similarly be doubled (assuming the heal does not target someone with full health).
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:48 am

Raid healing would not be doubled, it would go down, just as Treck suggested. Your Battle Healer healing is not a proc, it's a straight 1:1 damage conversion, and HotR does less damage against a single target than CS does.

So far the single-target simulation numbers seem pretty close to my rough numbers above:
Code: Select all
|    |                                          |    DPS |   SHPS |    DPS |   SHPS | SS/EF | Empty |        |
| Q# | Priority                                 | V=100k | V=100k |  V=50k |  V=50k |   Up% |  GCD% |  HPG/s |
|  4 | CS>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                     |  83289 |  16885 |  51232 |   9920 |   0.0 |   7.5 | 0.3948 |
| 10 | HotR>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                   |  80594 |  21476 |  49328 |  12617 |   0.0 |   7.5 | 0.3948 |

We're getting about 4591 SHPS increase instead of 3k; I have to make sure everything's working properly though, because that seems suspicious (4591/3073=1.494, 1/0.65=1.5385, suggesting there's a decent chance I've screwed something up in the code regarding the proc rate).

<edit> Actually, I think it's just coincidental. The hand-calculated numbers are assuming low-hit/exp, while the sim is using 7.5% hit and 7.5% exp. So the rough hand-calc is a significant under-estimate.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:46 am

Ohhh, my mistake. I thought Glyph of the Battle Healer was 30% of the SoI heal, not 30% of the damage dealt.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:11 am

It seems like the question of whether or not you should be using CS really comes down to whether or not you're using Glyph of the Battle Healer. If yes, use CS. If not, use HotR.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:29 am

I think that's oversimplifying it a bit. CS is still more raw DPS and doesn't break CC, and you don't always care about your self-healing (off-tanking, for example). It's still situational - use CS when you want more DPS, use HotR if you're in need of more survivability and aren't risking breaking CC.
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