Patch 5.1

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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 am

Teranoid wrote:
Fenris wrote:The problem isn't with Thrall though.It's the way they handed him to us as the green-skinned Jesus in Cataclysm that was terrible.


Bingo.


Yep - some of the hate is pretty understandable. He got over-used, over-extended into areas that seemed to trivialize the player's actions, and had some pretty flimsy mary sue story-telling. If some people liked him after all that, other than Metzen, cool. I didn't.

A guildie put it this way:
Thrall in cataclysm felt kinda like what Tom Bombadil from The Lord of the Rings probably would have felt like if they had tried to cram him into the movies: This wierd, super-powered character who for some reason can't solve all the world's problems on his own.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:23 am

Didn't care about his Cata power trip. The Aggra quests were interesting, as was his book. In fact, anything that emphasizes his humanity, instead of his badassitude is cool in my book.

Thrall hates being a badass. Thrall just wants to be left alone to enjoy a peaceful Horde. And yet people just can't stop messing things up. So he sighs, he stands, and he does what little he can, mostly calling on the good in his people's hearths.

That's the Thrall I like - a man of words, more than action.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:40 am

Thrall was barely in any quests in Cata, it was only in the last maybe 2 patches that he even remotely turned up.

You see him on your way into deepholm and it's like "Welp, I'll stay here and hold the world together love you bye", until he gets married/blowed up in the Firelands intro. Unless you count the Goblin starter zone with his very inconsistent ability levels there, then his footprint is rather small.

I like Thrall, the term Mary-sue gets thrown around very easily and whilst I agree he has the sword of Author Fate on his side most of the time, that doesn't make him a poor character. The green Jesus, is a term I've heard a lot and I've never really understood, Thrall is almost nothing like Jesus, apart from the beard robe combo, I really don't see it, He's never died for the redemption of his people, Grom did.

For a Mary-sue, things don't go his way a lot, Graoosh is actively destroying everything he ever stood for as Warchief and he done jack to stop it, hell he's encouraged it. He's still alive and he's done some amazing things but he's a hero, that's what they do, it would be a very boring story otherwise. Once you take out the Mary-sue brush I find it hard to see how any main character couldn't be tarred with it.

I actually liked Arthas' omnipresence in Wrath and it made sense with regards of what he was trying to do, if it wasn't for Tirion and his bubblehacks (damn Mary-sue!), the plan would have came to fruition.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:50 am

I'm actually liking the Horde story, we get to see Garrosh as not-stupid, and effective (but morally... erhmmm...), and the storytelling is shaded just enough to make sure we don't think that what Garrosh does is a good idea.
Looking forward to the next chapter - and kicking myslf for not getting the beats quest done for another 240 rep yesterday - now I'm 240 rep behind wher eI ould have been *rage*
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:54 am

Well, I'll fill you in on the new chapter if there's one :-p
Looks like it's Bob's turn again!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Teranoid » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:55 am

Yeah I completely ignored the beast daily for the first few days.

That's usually how I operate though. Get to what would be the last day of dailies, fall like 1 quest short and then rage at myself for being lazy that one day. Fell 100 rep short of being exalted with Golden Lotus and rather than just wait for reset I farmed for a chest key for 4 hours grumbling every time I looted a body that didn't have one.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:55 am

I should really do that new faction, I just burned myself out of dailies.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:59 am

ah thrall in cata

i love his character's backstory
i LOVE the aggra quests when you help reclaim parts of him, great insight to thrall as a person

but i HATE what they did with him in DS

yes, he is a powerful shaman, there is no doubt
but to go from warchief, to master of teh fucking universe all powerful shaman in a matter of months in game time?
(which is important to remember, our fight in outland, excursion to northrend, the subsequent cataclysm, and the discovery of pandaria happens in a matter of years...iow less then a decade in game time line)

i thought it was wrong to make him the psudeo-aspect of earth
i mean yes, it fits with the dragon/demon soul and if any of the aspects beside deathwing used it it would be bad (something to do with part of their power already locked inside the artifact) but really?
thrall obtains the same power level of a titan empower DRAGON! through shamanism.......when a matter of months ago he was just a powerful shaman leading the horde

yes he is powerful, but there is a difference between mortal magic users asking the elements for assistance, and being so powerful you can rule over an aspect of the planet!
beyond that, thrall is a great character, great backstory and hopefully a nice long quiet retirement as some other lore personality steps up to take the reins from Garrosh....whom thrall put in place to begin with.

i love Vol'jin as warchief.
he has proven that he can work with the alliance when needed (4.1, he was the one that sent darkspear to SW to aid in uncovering the zandilari plot)
he has also proven to be a leader for the darkspears, and was advisor of thrall for years (he and thrall met following thrall and the orc's escape from the interment camps while crossing the great sea towards kalimdor, where he met cairne and the tauren)
plus besides hte orcs, the trolls are the longest running member of the horde. the undead joined (i believe) to give the horde a foothold on EK, kinda like Darnassus was for the alliance. the foresaken in turn brought in the blood elves (yay sylvanis)

everything points to Vol'jin being hte next warchief.
there is the long history between thrall and him, his next longest contact is Cairne, and he died at the hands of Garrosh and Magra Grimtotem, or orcs like Rexxar....most of which are older than thrall (being part of the original horde, while thrall was born either after or VERY shortly before the invasion..he was found as a baby)
it is either you give the warchief spot to an old orc war hero (oh hey Garrosh's dad! oh wait...) someone who hasn't been tested (new orc figure, blaine) or one of the longest members of the horde who was also a long time advisor to the previous warchief


table will be flipped if thrall is put back in power, despite us being shown him having a VERY clear want to step down from power and just raise his family in peace.
honestly, that is another part of it as well. do you give the warchief mantle to some young orc, who might be like garrosh and want the glory of the horde back? or do you give it to a young tauren, who still has a grudge against the person who conspired to kill his father (magra hasnt been killed yet has she? i havent done much horde questing) ...or do you give it to someone who defied the current warchief and offered a hand of friendship and peace to the opposing faction in order to subdue a greater threat?
another thing to remember is that the darkspear tribe is technically part of the Gurrubashi nation, which is why Vol'jin was summoned to the meeting with the Zandi'lari...and he walked away and fought them.


sorry for the wall of text, this is just something i am passionate about.
like i said, tables will be flipped if thrall is back in power full time


as a side note, garrosh is doing what he veiws as the best for the horde, having been raised with the view of his father being the hero of hte horde (which he was, he and thrall killed manneroth, which ended the blood craze....yay fantasy mechanics!) but he was a perpetrator of terrible deeds before that last act of valor. iirc he was the one that first drank the blood that started the blood craze...

anyway, if you want to see a side of garrosh not normally talked about, do the horde side of stonetalon mountains.
at one point, the orc in charge of the fighting tells you to blow up a druid school. garoosh goes apeshit on you and him for doing so, and it is only the intervention of a tauren shaman that saves him from making you an example for going against his orders and wishes. he wants an honorable war, blowing up neutral parties is not honorable.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:05 am

Lastwolf wrote:I like Thrall, the term Mary-sue gets thrown around very easily and whilst I agree he has the sword of Author Fate on his side most of the time, that doesn't make him a poor character. The green Jesus, is a term I've heard a lot and I've never really understood, Thrall is almost nothing like Jesus, apart from the beard robe combo, I really don't see it, He's never died for the redemption of his people, Grom did.

For a Mary-sue, things don't go his way a lot, Graoosh is actively destroying everything he ever stood for as Warchief and he done jack to stop it, hell he's encouraged it. He's still alive and he's done some amazing things but he's a hero, that's what they do, it would be a very boring story otherwise. Once you take out the Mary-sue brush I find it hard to see how any main character couldn't be tarred with it.


I'll agree that mary sue gets tossed around a lot, but on the other hand isn't that kind of what happened (at least in-game... maybe not the books?)? You have this character who suddenly (and fairly inexplicably from my view - but perhaps that comes of not reading the book?) happens to have the very powers necessary to save the world from a god-like big-bad so big and bad that the combined might of the dragon aspects, the dragon flights, cenarion circle and isn't sufficient, ah, but he can't do it alone... good thing there are these heroes here to hold the dragon down!

So I think it comes as a matter of perspective. Particularly, Deathwing wasn't a terribly well set up bad guy in my mind (almost too big a bad, literally in the case of some of the fight design) so I think Thrall being set up as the counterpoint may not have helped perception of him.

Lastwolf wrote:I should really do that new faction, I just burned myself out of dailies.


This. I finally got back to doing some after the commendations came out, since I'd hit revered and told them to go screw off while I drink myself into oblivion to forget :P

Also - maybe it's me... but it seems like the daily quest design was intended to promote world pvp, but on pve servers you just end up getting pissed off at everyone. Until apathy sets in and you just stop caring and grab whatever quest items you see.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:06 am

I would also like to go on record as claiming that I am not responsible for any derailing :P
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:12 am

benebarba wrote:I would also like to go on record as claiming that I am not responsible for any derailing :P

Methinks thou doth protest too much.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Newsom » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:17 am

Derailing is what makes this forum great. :D
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:18 am

Newsom wrote:Derailing is what makes this forum great. :D

Though preferably after some sort of answer has been given to teh original query (unless its uinane - holy pala talent thread?)
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:20 am

Nooska wrote:
Newsom wrote:Derailing is what makes this forum great. :D

Though preferably after some sort of answer has been given to teh original query (unless its uinane - holy pala talent thread?)

wait...what was the original query here?
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:23 am

Something to do with whther 5.1 was going to be horrible because of forced pvp (or at least thats how a quick skim of the first 2 posts gets interpreted to me currently)
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