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All about sports

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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:07 am

@Teranoid.
I know right? It took everything that Tribe fans had been thinking about the current front office, and put it in black and white.

@Klaud
The Dolan who owns the Indians is the Uncle, or something to the Dolan who owns the Knicks. Keep the dumb in the family I guess.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:18 am

Shoju wrote:Unfair characterization?
As I said, from what you wrote, absolutely that was unfair. He basically said, "if all that matters is winning, then don't come", and that is vastly different than "don't expect us to win". Now if he's said that at other points, then fair enough, but I was referring to what had been posted.

Shoju wrote:Not a Fan when they aren't winning?
That's not at all what I said. I said, if someone can't be a fan when the team isn't winning, then they aren't really a fan. Those folks are the classic bandwagon jumpers. My use of "you" wasn't referring to a specific person but to the reader in general.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:51 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Shoju wrote:Unfair characterization?
As I said, from what you wrote, absolutely that was unfair. He basically said, "if all that matters is winning, then don't come", and that is vastly different than "don't expect us to win". Now if he's said that at other points, then fair enough, but I was referring to what had been posted.

Shoju wrote:Not a Fan when they aren't winning?
That's not at all what I said. I said, if someone can't be a fan when the team isn't winning, then they aren't really a fan. Those folks are the classic bandwagon jumpers. My use of "you" wasn't referring to a specific person but to the reader in general.


If you look at his comments, and then his defense of the comments, I don't see how what I said is unfair. He's telling people that if you are coming to the ballpark, expecting to see a winning team take the field, don't come. He thinks that you should put just as much "weight" into the "love of the game" and the "Atmosphere" at the ballpark. And the problem is, the atmosphere, and the love of the game are directly related to the team, on the field.

If he was saying this to someone who was talking about buying single game tickets? I'd buy your reasoning. But this was to a current season ticket holder, looking for a reason to renew his season tickets. Instead of talking about the hiring of Francona, and trying to build around the nucleus of Choo, Brantley, Cabrera, and Kipnis, he decided to be a wanker, and say "Yeah, don't come"

We (Indians fans) are hardly what you would call "bandwagon fair weather fans" We're fans who have grown up loving a team, Hell, a whole city of teams that haven't won a damn thing in our lifetime. We've endured The Braves World Series Loss, The Marlins Game 7, The Drive, The Fumble, The Sweep by the Spurs, and the Choke act that followed. Yet we come back and love our teams just the same. We are grumbling, we are unhappy. We are pissed. And we have every right to be.

How would you feel if your beloved lovable loser Pirates Front Office responded to a "I'm trying to justify re-newing my season tickets. Can you tell me why I should?" question with "If all that you care about is winning, don't come". Especially since the Pirates have been getting better. They've been making strides. They have a star player in McCutchen, and Hurdle has them playing hard. The anger towards the statement is as much to do with what he said "Don't Come" as it was with what he didn't say. He's the face of the front office. It's his fugging JOB to sell the fans on what the Team is doing. It's his job to tell you that things are getting better, that they are getting serious, that they want to make this better, that they want to compete with Detroit. That they are seeing what other small market teams are doing, and that they are going to start looking at ways to emulate their success.

It's not his job to get a stick shoved up his ass sideways and say "Yeah, if you just want see wins, Don't Come", and then follow it up with "We're ok with that."
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:15 am

I agree 100% with shoju's point of view
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:34 am

Shoju wrote:If you look at his comments, and then his defense of the comments, I don't see how what I said is unfair. He's telling people that if you are coming to the ballpark, expecting to see a winning team take the field, don't come. He thinks that you should put just as much "weight" into the "love of the game" and the "Atmosphere" at the ballpark. And the problem is, the atmosphere, and the love of the game are directly related to the team, on the field.

If he was saying this to someone who was talking about buying single game tickets? I'd buy your reasoning. But this was to a current season ticket holder, looking for a reason to renew his season tickets. Instead of talking about the hiring of Francona, and trying to build around the nucleus of Choo, Brantley, Cabrera, and Kipnis, he decided to be a wanker, and say "Yeah, don't come"

We (Indians fans) are hardly what you would call "bandwagon fair weather fans" We're fans who have grown up loving a team, Hell, a whole city of teams that haven't won a damn thing in our lifetime. We've endured The Braves World Series Loss, The Marlins Game 7, The Drive, The Fumble, The Sweep by the Spurs, and the Choke act that followed. Yet we come back and love our teams just the same. We are grumbling, we are unhappy. We are pissed. And we have every right to be.

How would you feel if your beloved lovable loser Pirates Front Office responded to a "I'm trying to justify re-newing my season tickets. Can you tell me why I should?" question with "If all that you care about is winning, don't come". Especially since the Pirates have been getting better. They've been making strides. They have a star player in McCutchen, and Hurdle has them playing hard. The anger towards the statement is as much to do with what he said "Don't Come" as it was with what he didn't say. He's the face of the front office. It's his fugging JOB to sell the fans on what the Team is doing. It's his job to tell you that things are getting better, that they are getting serious, that they want to make this better, that they want to compete with Detroit. That they are seeing what other small market teams are doing, and that they are going to start looking at ways to emulate their success.

It's not his job to get a stick shoved up his ass sideways and say "Yeah, if you just want see wins, Don't Come", and then follow it up with "We're ok with that."

He was pretty emphatic, and emphasized twice what he was talking about. Here's what you quoted him as saying (emphasis mine):
“I told him if the sole reason, the only reason, for renewing is predicated on us winning, then they shouldn’t come,” Shapiro said. “I stand by that. Baseball has to mean more than just being a fan when you win.
No where are we spending more of our time, more of our energy or more money in trying to win. We all understand that the single-most important thing in baseball is winning and losing. But we are always going to have cycles to when we can win.
I don’t begrudge our fans for not coming. That portion which won’t come if we don’t win, I’m OK with that. I don’t call them front-runners or fair-weather fans. I’m confident we will win them back, but I feel sorry for them because they’re missing out on some of what makes baseball special.


I agree he was a wanker and he essentially deflected the question. There is plenty there to be quite critical of, but those comments do not equate to "don't expect us to win". Though, had he gone through the song and dance of explaining their process of building a winner, I don't know if the reception would have been any better.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:05 pm

And the problem that I have with what he said, is Baseball has meant so much more to Cleveland fans for a LONG TIME. We have put forward our good faith for a long time with this ownership group, and shapiro as their mouth piece. But it's getting to a point where

"Baseball has to mean more than just being a fan when you win."

is running thin, because we have been existing on the "stuff that isn't winning" for a really long time. in 13 years of ownership, we've seen 2 playoff teams. And lots of trading away the talent for younger talent.

Hell, my father has never seen the Indians win it all. He's going to be 60 in January. Even his "Die Hard Fan" vibe is starting to wane. 60 years, no rings. The only team with a longer drought? The Cubs.

For them to keep pushing this "nostalgic" notion that Baseball is more than just winning it all, when the fans have given him and the current ownership group 13 years to try and figure out how to exist the way other small market teams have, is taxing.

It's part of the reason why Cleveland Fans are gravitating towards JHIII. He's up front, He's honest. He just dropped a billion dollars on buying the browns (okay, 750 million so far) and wants, and expects, results. He has that personality that Cleveland fans love. I'm sure he hasn't been middle class or poor in a long time, but being a "Truck Stop Owner" as cheesy as that is, plays really well to the public. You see him during the games, and he's a fan. He's showing the same emotion that you are during the games. He's invested, and it shows.

To be 100% honest with you? You could line up The owners of the Indians in front of me, and I would have no FREAKING CLUE who they were. They aren't visible. Just Shaprio. So couple Shapiro's comments, with invisible owners, with "Woe is me, we are small market" that we've been hearing, and the "Don't Come" is the straw that broke the camels back.

To then say, that they're "ok with that" when referring to fans who wont come if they don't win? That doesn't sit well either. We don't want to hear that. We want to hear that you aren't happy that your fans aren't coming because you aren't winning. We want to see (not just hear) that you are doing everything you can to build a winning team, and a winning organization. Our Televisions aren't from the bygone era where all we got was the local sports coverage. We see what the Reds, and the Rays, and the Brewers, are doing to strive to be winners.

When we hear

"We all understand that the single-most important thing in baseball is winning and losing. But we are always going to have cycles to when we can win."

We are left wondering, was 2007 the cycle where we could win? Was that it? And then there was the massive tradeoff/selloff of all the talent? We wonder why we don't hear about Cleveland locking up their talent for 8 - 10 years. If the Rays, Reds, and Brewers can do it in considerably smaller markets, why can't we?
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Re: All about sports

Postby Teranoid » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:09 pm

I'm still laughing at Fridmarr's notion that there is such a thing as a Cleveland Indian bandwagon.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:15 pm

Teranoid wrote:I'm still laughing at Fridmarr's notion that there is such a thing as a Cleveland Indian bandwagon.


"Bandwagon" fans of historically bad teams are just old fans who feel the tingle of hope when the team starts doing well after years of mediocre. Who thew get shit on when the team sends out messages about not showing up when they aren't fielding competitive tams. *has fingers crossed that Baltimore doesn't slide back to 60 wins*
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Re: All about sports

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:24 pm

Shoju wrote:For them to keep pushing this "nostalgic" notion that Baseball is more than just winning it all, when the fans have given him and the current ownership group 13 years to try and figure out how to exist the way other small market teams have, is taxing.


And that "nostalgic" notion, and those that push it fail to realize that the world has changed. This isn't the 30's or 40's where baseball served as a national escape from a lot of bad stuff. It isn't the world when baseball was king and the NFL wasn't either here yet or was a afterthought (and the same for the NBA). This isn't the age where kids would sneak a radio under the covers to listen to the game instead of going to sleep.

This is the age where rosters can turn over so fast that you do need a scorecard. This is now an age where for many teams you don't need to follow the minor league teams, because anyone there worthwhile will be traded before you get to see them anyway.

If they are relying on nostalgia and loyalty, they have a rude awakening coming. That loyalty only works where it's part of a greater culture (Chicago, Boston..).

Some owners, and many baseball purists, fail to realize that their sport won't be economically viable if they aren't competitive at least once in a while.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:54 pm

^

and that's why I said the romantic notion of baseball is pretty much lost these days, unless you're a fan of a minor league team, where some of that charm can still be found
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:03 pm

I agree with almost all of that. There is plenty of valid criticism there.

I get that the rebuilding song and dance has gotten old. His statement was dumb. He should have been talking about whatever he thinks is special that folks will be missing instead of deflecting the question. But I'm just saying that his answer does not mean "don't expect us to win" which is an incredibly damning statement.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:15 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I agree with almost all of that. There is plenty of valid criticism there.

I get that the rebuilding song and dance has gotten old. His statement was dumb. He should have been talking about whatever he thinks is special that folks will be missing instead of deflecting the question. But I'm just saying that his answer does not mean "don't expect us to win" which is an incredibly damning statement.


He may not have meant it that way, but that's really how it feels. If he believed in the team, and he believed that we could win, why not say something else? I just don't get it.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:05 pm

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Re: All about sports

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:32 pm

For once, a reference in a sports thread I actually get!
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:45 am

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