Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:24 am

So what you're saying is that casting SotR doesn't refresh the buff, but rather it adds to it? So if I do 5HP SotR - CS - 3HP SotR it will add 3 seconds to time remaining on the SotR buff?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Brokenone » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:35 am

boneyjellyfish wrote:So what you're saying is that casting SotR doesn't refresh the buff, but rather it adds to it? So if I do 5HP SotR - CS - 3HP SotR it will add 3 seconds to time remaining on the SotR buff?


Yes.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Thels » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:51 am

HoW grants hp during HA? Would that be a reason to bump HoW straight after J during HA?

Oh, and don't base talents after Heroism. For all you know, you might nit even be tanking during Heroism. Better take something you have control over.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:49 pm

HoW should be ahead of J below 20% for dps, while J > HoW for HPgen.
HoW only grants 2x HP (im guessing its an issue since it gives HP as ret, so when HA is up it gives +2 HP on all abilities, and they just forgot to blacklist HoW for prot) so depending on how many HP you started out with, HoW will make you able to use Shield of the Righteous after every cast as well, altho im not 100% sure what is best for optimal HP generation, I guess it should still be CS>J>HoW but I think Theck has to correct me on that.

And yes, HoW also benefits from the 30% additional damage that Holy avenger provides when it generates Holypower.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:22 pm

Treck wrote:HoW only grants 2x HP (im guessing its an issue since it gives HP as ret, so when HA is up it gives +2 HP on all abilities, and they just forgot to blacklist HoW for prot)

Yup, this is exactly the bug. HA basically gives +2 HP generation to each generator, and HoW is a generator for ret. When they gave the ability back to us, they turned off its default HP generation, but forgot to inform HA about that detail. :P

Treck wrote:HoW should be ahead of J below 20% for dps, while J > HoW for HPgen.

Yes, and this is true with or without HA. HoW hits so damn hard that HoW>CS is even a DPS increase. That said, if you're aiming for survivability, you'd put it behind your other HP generators.

Treck wrote:so depending on how many HP you started out with, HoW will make you able to use Shield of the Righteous after every cast as well, altho im not 100% sure what is best for optimal HP generation, I guess it should still be CS>J>HoW but I think Theck has to correct me on that.


Rough math:
CS>J>HoW gives CS-J-HoW-CS-X-J-CS-HoW-X- repeat.
HP gen is 3/4.5=0.6667 from CS, 3/6.75=0.4444 from J, and 2/6.75=0.2963 from HoW. Total of 1.4074 HP/s. Throw in a 50% chance of AS for 0.5*3/13.5 for another 0.1111 HP/s for good measure, and we'll call it 1.52 HP/s.

CS>HoW>J gives CS-HoW-J-CS-X-HoW-CS-J-X- repeat.
HP gen is identical to the above case, because we still have 2 HoW and 2 J per complete cycle. We also could have guessed this because the two situations give identical DPS and HP generation in the general case:
Code: Select all
|    |                                          |    DPS |   SHPS |    DPS |   SHPS | SS/EF | Empty |        |
| Q# | Priority                                 | V=100k | V=100k |  V=50k |  V=50k |   Up% |  GCD% |  HPG/s |
| 56 | CS>J>HoW>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                 |  88063 |  16868 |  54014 |   9909 |   0.0 |   0.0 | 0.3923 |
| 57 | CS>HoW>J>AS>HW>Cons>SotR                 |  88063 |  16868 |  54014 |   9909 |   0.0 |   0.0 | 0.3923 |


HoW>J>CS gives HoW-J-CS-X- repeat. (also identical to J>HoW>CS).
HP gen is 2/6 from HoW, 3/6 from J, 3/6 from CS, for a net of 1.333 HP/s. Ever so slightly lower than the default rotation. AS would be a 20% chance per cycle, or another 0.1 Hp/s, for a net of 1.433 HP/s, still lower than the default rotation with AS.

So Treck is correct that CS>J>HoW is still the optimal HP generation rotation. For max DPS you'd still want to go with HoW>AS>CS>J>HW>Cons>SotR, though it's possible that HoW>J>AS>CS is competitive too (apparently I didn't sim that one, I'll include it in the next round of updates).
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:41 pm

Do those priority sims include AS+ with a glyph of focused shield? Would AS+ take the place of HoW? If I go through a full rotation, there is a point where AS+ taking the place of HoW may result in one extra SotR:

Assuming 5HP:
CS>J>HoW gives CS-J-HoW-CS-X-J-CS-HoW-X- repeat

HA>CS>5HP>J>5HP>HoW>4HP>CS>4HP>X>J>4HP>CS>4HP>HoW>3HP>X>CS>3HP>J>3HP>HoW>CS>5HP>HA is finished

In this rotation, the 5HP/4HP/3HP numbers indicate that a SotR is cast then with that total HP. Assuming 0 latency and 0 haste rating, this entire rotation takes exactly 19.5 seconds. With enough haste to bring this rotation down to 18 seconds, or in other words enough haste to push that last CS into the the HA phase, then it may be a good idea to replace one of those HoW with AS+ just because AS+ would grant a full 3HP instead of 2HP. At the second-to-last spell in the rotation, you can see that there is a HoW cast when the paladin has 0HP. That brings it up to 2HP. In order to cast one last SotR, the paladin must cast another CS. If we prioritize AS+ over HoW, then we have a more ideal situation where we are able to use SotR after every HP-generator in the entire HA phase.

If my calculations are correct (I sort of doubt they are...) then ~8.33% haste should get us that extra GCD in the HA phase. I'm interested in seeing what the different break points for this are. How much haste would be required to get 14 or 15GCDs?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:06 pm

It doesn't assume Focused Shield. In any event, you're assuming that you're getting an AS+ proc from one specific CS (bolded below), which is only a 20% chance. If we got a proc earlier, we'd use it in place of one of the X's. In that case there's no question that it's a DPS and survivability to make that prioritization, but it's only going to hold true for that specific interaction.

HA>CS>5HP>J>5HP>HoW>4HP>CS>4HP>X>J>4HP>CS>4HP>HoW>3HP>X>CS>3HP>J>3HP>HoW>CS>5HP>HA is finished
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Diceone » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:42 pm

Doing dailies today it appears that the HA + HoW is fixed. Not generating any holy power HoW with HA up.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:01 pm

Well, that settles that then.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Thels » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:04 am

Yeah, I was indeed wondering about HoW before AS+ for HP generation. AS+ generates 3, but HoW is more often available.

Either way, the discussion is moot with HoW's bonus HP gone.

That means AS+ before HoW, and HoW before anything else that doesn't generate HP (Except perhaps SS), right?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Egtheridon » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:27 am

In my raid we only have 1 str dps and 1 prot warrior, so either way it wasn't important whether i got traditional dps or tank gear and initially we didn't have a str dps so i started gearing hard cap hit/exp>haste>mastery>>>stam>>>crit/dodge/parry and i've had no problems tanking any of the normal or heroic content i've done so at this point i just gear like a dps and use str trinkets(str gives some parry but this tier all hte str trinkets seem to have haste procs which is nice).

At this point we have done 6/6 hof, 1/6 hheroic msv a lot of our lack of progress is attendance(i think we are like the 8th smallest server by population lol so no show generaly no raid). But on the point of tanking stats 8,194 haste/hit+exp hardcapped/2863 mastery/1126 dodge(4.42) /260 parry(17.2 from str). Its definitely viable since i killed the bosses lol and in terms of damage intake i generally as my gear has gotten better have taken a lot less damage than the warrior I tank with and also I do a lot of healing. Shield uptime is generally pretty high with holy avenger i can get about 44 percent uptime, and with dp i've gotten over 53 on stoneguard.

One thing that on reviewing my logs that is kinda funny is windsong uptime i have about 75 percent uptime of the buff 25.8 haste/24.1 mastery/23.7 crit with the new real pp and it scales of your highest haste rating which is spell haste mine is 31.21 before 5% spell haste raid buff.(atleast according to the real ppm notes blizzard released, and also yes i get that extra sacred shield tic :))

I can definitely see how it can be difficult in a 25 man raid to get a hold of haste/mastery/exp/hit gear but in tens your really not taking away from the raid either way and I'd highly encourage making a haste>>> set because regardless of anything else its really fun and if you have to dps some fights your gtg with ret gear.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:19 am

and again i got one of my crazy ideas.
most bosses either have a 1.5 or a 2 Second swing timer. now if would have enough spellhaste to get the refreshrate od SS just slightly below the swing timer it should assure having an absorb up for every hit (not counting other damage sources)

Is anyone mathy enough to tell me just how many spellhaste is needed to reach that? :P

just out of pure curiosity, even if it is unrealistic a goal.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Ergil » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:00 am

Well SS gives a shield every 6 seconds without any haste. With haste it should give a shield every
6/(1.1*1.05*(1+haste%)) seconds (with raidbuffs and SoI), where haste% is the percentage of haste accquired through rating. Solving this for 2 seconds I get 160% haste required, which amazingly is only 68000 rating... not really a point we can look for :D
Even for a 3 second rate I get a rating of 31110 (which seems quite high, so maybe someone check my calculations...) so even a shield for every second attack is out of question. For every 3rd attack (swingtimer of 1.5 seconds obviously^^) it starts getting into the realistic amounts, only needing a little over 6000 rating.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:38 am

Yeah, those numbers are correct. 67890 rating to get it down to a 2-second tick, 31093 for a 3-second tick, 6562 for a 4.5-second tick. That last one is about 15.44% haste before SoI and raid buffs.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Ergil » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:14 am

Something which might be useful (but I have no idea if it is possible to execute it...), is trying to cover attacks, which are not covered by SotR, with SS. Assuming we would have the 6562 rating, every 3rd attack will be having a SS for sure (with 100% uptime of SS, wich in my opinion is not a problem). Therefore we would only have to care for the remaining two attacks.
I am quite sure that even with perfect execution, the timings will not work out all of the time (and if magic dmg is dealt it might become even more impossible).
Furthermore to gurantee this, a SotR every 4.5 sec would be required, wich I do not think is even possible, but trying it as close as possible might lead to a positive effect.
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