Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

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Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby DisRuptive1 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:21 pm

This assumes hit and expertise caps. You're at a point where you can choose either Haste or Mastery in gemming and reforging. Would it be viable to stack Haste? Priorities would be Hit=Expertise>Haste>Mastery>Parry~Dodge.

Assuming you do stack Haste is there a point at which you should stop such as when you get your GCD down to 1 second? Doing some napkin math it looked like I could reach that point with 36.36% Haste and raid buffs.

If stacking Haste is viable, is there any benefit to stacking it beyond the point of a 1 second GCD? I imagine it would feel wrong because your GCD would be at 1 second but Crusader's Strike would be at a 2.9 second cooldown, Judgment would be 3.8 seconds, etc and there would be downtime between waiting for a spell to come off cooldown after the GCD is up.

TL;DR: I want to stack Haste instead of Mastery. Am I daft?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:26 pm

1) Yes, haste>mastery is a viable gearing strategy. It's been discussed quite thoroughly all over the place - here, EJ, my blog, etc.

2) 36.36% haste doesn't get you to a one-second GCD, for starters. You'd need 50% haste, not counting the 10% from SoI (which is only spell haste, not melee haste).

3) The more interesting question: let's say we do get to 50% haste. Is there a benefit to having more? Yes and no. At 50% haste, your GCD is 1 second, CS's cooldown is 3 seconds, J's is 4 seconds. Your rotation is still the same as it is with no haste: CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X. Stacking more will reduce spell cooldowns, but not the GCD. That means we'll have an odd choice to make: we can skip fillers for higher HPG (but probaly much lower DPS), or use fillers and push HPG back.

For example, assume we have 80% haste. At that point, CS is a 2.5-second cooldown and J is 3.33 seconds. If we cast CS-J, we can either choose to wait half a second and use CS again, turning our rotation into CS-J-wait-CS-X-(repeat), or we can keep our normal rotation and push back CS. The former will be higher HPG than the latter, but will probably be lower DPS.

We'll run into this clashing until we get to 125% haste, at which point CS becomes a 2-second cooldown (and J a 2.67-second cooldown). Then we get to a clean CS-J-CS-X-(repeat). After that, there's another gap until we have enough haste to push J to a 2-second cooldown, which happens at 200% haste, turning our rotation into CS-J-(repeat).

Haste isn't completely useless in-between those break points - we're still increasing SoI healing, and getting more Sacred Shield ticks every 20% haste. But it's not worth a lot, because those are both small effects.

So, TLDR: Haste is good up to 50%, uneven between 50% and 125%, and then relatively weak unless you can reach 300% (and then weak again until you can hit 600%, where you can spam Judgment every GCD).
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Morwo » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:44 am

So then, do i aim for any haste plateaus like mentioned here, 1%, 8.33%, 16.67%, 25%, 33.33%, etc.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=746448#p746448

or can i go for just stacking haste?
dont nerf me bro
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:34 pm

No, I don't think there's much sense in aiming for particular haste break points. Haste is always good.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Morwo » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:44 am

Thanks!
dont nerf me bro
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby xQi » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:35 am

While reforging and gearing haste would be viable, what about gemming haste? Assuming you aren't sacrificing hit or expertise for haste, would that be another way to go about?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Kihra » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:06 am

xQi wrote:While reforging and gearing haste would be viable, what about gemming haste? Assuming you aren't sacrificing hit or expertise for haste, would that be another way to go about?


Yes, this is a completely viable approach (so is gemming Mastery, so is gemming pure Stamina, it's really just a matter of personal preference). This is what I'm doing currently, and I enjoy it, mainly because it results in more damage. :)

I've been gemming Exp/Haste in Red sockets, Exp/Stam in Blue sockets, and pure Haste in Yellow/Prismatic sockets. You do end up sacrificing some Stamina with this approach, however, so you have to be comfortable with your health pool before doing something like this.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby DisRuptive1 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:20 pm

theckhd wrote:No, I don't think there's much sense in aiming for particular haste break points.


What about the fact that it feels wrong? I'm still trying to gear up through heroics and have some Ret gear with Haste that I'm using just because it's better than any tank gear right now and I'm at the point where the cooldowns of some of my spells are ending at slightly different times along with the GCD (I remember earlier today where Crusader Strike and Judgment were both coming off cooldown at the same time but the GCD ended a fraction of a second before I could use Crusader Strike).

What are the Haste plateaus where everything lines up perfectly or what figures do I need to know to calculate it from my own gear? Is it ok to stack haste to one of these plateaus and then stack mastery or do haste and mastery have an exponential effect which is diminished when trying to stack both?

And just one final question which I think would be a good place to ask here. Is the 10% attack speed raid buff equivalent to 10% haste?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Fetzie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:33 am

Is the 10% attack speed raid buff equivalent to 10% haste?

No.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:11 am

DisRuptive1 wrote:
theckhd wrote:No, I don't think there's much sense in aiming for particular haste break points.


What about the fact that it feels wrong? I'm still trying to gear up through heroics and have some Ret gear with Haste that I'm using just because it's better than any tank gear right now and I'm at the point where the cooldowns of some of my spells are ending at slightly different times along with the GCD (I remember earlier today where Crusader Strike and Judgment were both coming off cooldown at the same time but the GCD ended a fraction of a second before I could use Crusader Strike).

This is a weird quirk due to melee and spell haste being separate. Sanctity of Battle reduces the cooldowns and GCD of CS, J, etc., and it does so based on melee haste. Thus, CS's cooldown will always be an integer number of "melee" GCDs (3 GCDs), as will Judgment (4 GCDs), Cons (6 GCDs), etc.

However, spell haste natively reduces the GCD incurred by spell-type abilities. For us that's our fillers: Cons, AS, HW, L90 talents (HoW is ranged, so that should fit under the melee haste category). Since we'll always have more spell haste than melee haste, these abilities will have a slightly shorter GCD than CS or J will. Note that the cooldown of these abilities is still reduced by melee haste (via SoB), it's just the GCD that's shorter.

The difference is small enough that there's no advantage to slipping in another filler in that <0.05-second GCD window, and latency will generally make it impossible to take advantage of it anyway. In your scenario above, you'd just spam CS until it comes off of cooldown.

DisRuptive1 wrote:What are the Haste plateaus where everything lines up perfectly or what figures do I need to know to calculate it from my own gear? Is it ok to stack haste to one of these plateaus and then stack mastery or do haste and mastery have an exponential effect which is diminished when trying to stack both?

There aren't any, unless you're playing without SoI and without the raid spell haste buff.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby DisRuptive1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:56 pm

Since this thread was about stacking Haste, I figure I'd ask this question here.

Gloryrider wrote:I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.


This was posted on EJ. Is this information correct?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Lastwolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:45 am

seems achievable, it's double my current haste bu my gear is hardly the best.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:58 am

DisRuptive1 wrote:Since this thread was about stacking Haste, I figure I'd ask this question here.

Gloryrider wrote:I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.


This was posted on EJ. Is this information correct?


The 7th tick does indeed happen at 30% Spell Haste.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Brokenone » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:15 am

theckhd wrote:This is a weird quirk due to melee and spell haste being separate. Sanctity of Battle reduces the cooldowns and GCD of CS, J, etc., and it does so based on melee haste. Thus, CS's cooldown will always be an integer number of "melee" GCDs (3 GCDs), as will Judgment (4 GCDs), Cons (6 GCDs), etc.

However, spell haste natively reduces the GCD incurred by spell-type abilities. For us that's our fillers: Cons, AS, HW, L90 talents (HoW is ranged, so that should fit under the melee haste category). Since we'll always have more spell haste than melee haste, these abilities will have a slightly shorter GCD than CS or J will. Note that the cooldown of these abilities is still reduced by melee haste (via SoB), it's just the GCD that's shorter.

The difference is small enough that there's no advantage to slipping in another filler in that <0.05-second GCD window, and latency will generally make it impossible to take advantage of it anyway. In your scenario above, you'd just spam CS until it comes off of cooldown.


When you say there is no advantage, does that mean you simmed both ways? It feels very weird to pause when I have another ability up I could use. How significant will the spike frequency / TDR / DPS change when moving from one way to the other?

Also, isn't it a bigger gap on the CS-X-X part of the cycle since you'll likely have two "spell haste" category fillers?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Brokenone » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:15 am

theckhd wrote:This is a weird quirk due to melee and spell haste being separate. Sanctity of Battle reduces the cooldowns and GCD of CS, J, etc., and it does so based on melee haste. Thus, CS's cooldown will always be an integer number of "melee" GCDs (3 GCDs), as will Judgment (4 GCDs), Cons (6 GCDs), etc.

However, spell haste natively reduces the GCD incurred by spell-type abilities. For us that's our fillers: Cons, AS, HW, L90 talents (HoW is ranged, so that should fit under the melee haste category). Since we'll always have more spell haste than melee haste, these abilities will have a slightly shorter GCD than CS or J will. Note that the cooldown of these abilities is still reduced by melee haste (via SoB), it's just the GCD that's shorter.

The difference is small enough that there's no advantage to slipping in another filler in that <0.05-second GCD window, and latency will generally make it impossible to take advantage of it anyway. In your scenario above, you'd just spam CS until it comes off of cooldown.


When you say there is no advantage, does that mean you simmed both ways? It feels very weird to pause when I have another ability up I could use. How significant will the spike frequency / TDR / DPS change when moving from one way to the other?

Also, isn't it a bigger gap on the CS-X-X part of the cycle since you'll likely have two "spell haste" category fillers?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:51 am

DisRuptive1 wrote:Since this thread was about stacking Haste, I figure I'd ask this question here.

Gloryrider wrote:I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.


This was posted on EJ. Is this information correct?

Yes, (1+5336/425/100)*1.1*1.05=1.3000, or 30% haste, which gets you a 7th tick. However, it will be difficult to reach that this tier without very careful gear choices. For example, right now I have an ilvl of 493, with 890 haste rating, ~3000 parry rating, and ~3500 dodge rating, but I'm using mostly "traditional" tanking gear. If I could replace some dodge and parry items with haste/hit or haste/exp items, I could shift some of that 7500 avoidance rating over into haste and reach the 30% mark. Note that this is spell haste, though, not melee haste (i.e. not what's considered for SoB).
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Jaitee » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:28 pm

theckhd wrote:
DisRuptive1 wrote:Since this thread was about stacking Haste, I figure I'd ask this question here.

Gloryrider wrote:I had already brought up sacred shield ticks before, and after running it by Theck quickly we figured out our 30% (spell!) haste breakpoint is attainable and at around 5336 haste rating. This is assuming SoI and the spell haste raid buff active on you. This will give you a 2nd extra tick and thus 7 shields over casts lasting ~32 seconds.


This was posted on EJ. Is this information correct?

Yes, (1+5336/425/100)*1.1*1.05=1.3000, or 30% haste, which gets you a 7th tick. However, it will be difficult to reach that this tier without very careful gear choices. For example, right now I have an ilvl of 493, with 890 haste rating, ~3000 parry rating, and ~3500 dodge rating, but I'm using mostly "traditional" tanking gear. If I could replace some dodge and parry items with haste/hit or haste/exp items, I could shift some of that 7500 avoidance rating over into haste and reach the 30% mark. Note that this is spell haste, though, not melee haste (i.e. not what's considered for SoB).


that amount isnt too hard to get if you are lucky on drops (and like me have no strength dps to gear first/roll against) im at 5500ish with 1 stam trinket if i take it of and throw on my will of the emperor trinket i have way more...though i am a normal mode tank in a 6 hour a week guild so i can pretty much ignore stam gemming since there really isnt any normal mode stuff that hits hard enough
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Brokenone wrote:When you say there is no advantage, does that mean you simmed both ways? It feels very weird to pause when I have another ability up I could use. How significant will the spike frequency / TDR / DPS change when moving from one way to the other?

Also, isn't it a bigger gap on the CS-X-X part of the cycle since you'll likely have two "spell haste" category fillers?

Yes, earlier on in beta (when SoB was alternating between spell and melee haste) I ran some simulations on this issue. It universally turned out that trying to fit in extra fillers was a DPS loss. The reasoning is pretty obvious: you're using fillers ~0.1-0.2 seconds early, but pushing back HPG by ~1.2-1.3 seconds. That reduces SotR uptime (a survivability loss) and DPS (because you get fewer SotRs). All of those sims were done without the 10% haste from SoI, but it held true over a large range of haste values, so I don't expect that would change the results at all. The effect is twice as noticeable on the CS-X-X section, you're correct. But it's still not beneficial to take advantage of it.

I haven't done anything looking at this effect and spike frequency - I don't expect that it's worth bothering since it'll be a flat-out increase in spike frequency for no DPS gain.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:32 pm

Theck, is there a point where Divine Purpose would just become so powerful due to the amount of finishers we would be using? Or would you always suggest using Holy Avenger or Sanctified Wrath for the control of it?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:58 pm

Interesting question. I'd say that yes, there's definitely a point where DP shines, but it's probably at ~50% or more haste, or when you can reasonably reach 70-80% average uptime on SotR.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:39 am

theckhd wrote:Interesting question. I'd say that yes, there's definitely a point where DP shines, but it's probably at ~50% or more haste, or when you can reasonably reach 70-80% average uptime on SotR.


Thanks for the response, theck. Couple more questions:

1) Would it be wise to spec into DP when it's realistic to reach that haste number during bloodlust? Or would it only shine when/if we reach 50% without bloodlust

2) How does Sanctified Wrath interact with haste? Does the 50% cooldown reduction get calculated before or after haste (i.e. is it a flat 3 second reduction?).

3) Not related to haste, but does Holy Avenger boost the damage of a Grand Crusader-procced Avenger's Shield?
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:55 am

Even with BiS gear I think it taps out at about 39% haste, not sure bloodlust would make up the difference.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Fetzie » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:21 am

3) Not related to haste, but does Holy Avenger boost the damage of a Grand Crusader-procced Avenger's Shield?


No.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:34 am

boneyjellyfish wrote:1) Would it be wise to spec into DP when it's realistic to reach that haste number during bloodlust? Or would it only shine when/if we reach 50% without bloodlust

2) How does Sanctified Wrath interact with haste? Does the 50% cooldown reduction get calculated before or after haste (i.e. is it a flat 3 second reduction?).

3) Not related to haste, but does Holy Avenger boost the damage of a Grand Crusader-procced Avenger's Shield?

1) If you use HA during bloodlust you can keep stacking the buff so high that the uptime will be 100% for about 35-40sec depending on your haste, so I dont see why DP would be more attractive.

2) The CD reduction is before haste, aka during Avenging Wrath it has a 3sec CD then affected by haste, its also not a flat 3sec reduction since the haste affecting its GCD is different from 3sec and 6sec, so the haste should still reduce its CD by the same %, but since its CD will be lower, it wont be as much in seconds.

3) Yes it does, but in order for you to get the benefit, you have to get the grand crusader procc when affected by HA, if you use HA after you get the procc, it is not affected by the increase in damage, if done before it proccs, it WILL do another 30% damage.
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Re: Viable to stack haste instead of mastery?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:49 am

The whole point of my questions is evaluating the three talents: HA, SW, and DP, when paired with large amounts of haste. HA is the only talent that doesn't scale with haste (except in terms of its damage increase for HP-generating abilities). Regarding DP, I'm wondering at what point it would be beneficial to use DP instead of HA due to its haste scaling effects. Theck says that SotR uptime at around 50% haste would be ~70-80% (obviously, not hard numbers here). If we can get 80% uptime during BL and about 60% uptime otherwise, it seems like it would be fair to take it then vs. HA.

Regarding Sanctified Wrath, what I'm asking is how haste is calculated for it. I'm asking if:

1) Haste is calculated based on a 6-second cooldown and brings it down to 5 seconds. You then activate Sanctified Wrath and it brings it down to 2 seconds.

2) Haste is calculated based on a 6-second cooldown and brings it down to 5 seconds. You then activate Sanctified Wrath and it brings it down to 3 seconds, and then haste is recalculated bringing it down to 2.8 seconds or something.

3) Haste is calculated based on a 6-second cooldown and brings it down to 5 seconds. You then activate Sanctified Wrath and it brings it down to 2.5 seconds.

In situation 1) and 3), it seems like at high haste it could be worth taking SW over HA since we would have ~80-90% SotR uptime with it up, plus the healing bonus.
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