Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby daishan » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:10 am

Where would the shield come in that list do you think?
Low on stats but has a massive armour budget.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Brokenone » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:56 am

The shield makes me sad because it's dodge/parry. I think I'd rather upgrade a chest/helm/legs first.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:03 am

Weapon should be first for us also. Might not be much, but if you are still progressing, more often than not i think, its gonna matter if you will be able to pull 1k more dps, then just having 70 more stamina + 50 strength and some secondary stats. I have no math to back that up, but i feel that tank dps matters a lot(10 man PoV).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:36 pm

daishan wrote:Where would the shield come in that list do you think?
Low on stats but has a massive armour budget.

Good question. Armor is a big stat for us, so shield might be a decent choice. I'll look at the math for that later.

Hespherus wrote:Weapon should be first for us also. Might not be much, but if you are still progressing, more often than not i think, its gonna matter if you will be able to pull 1k more dps, then just having 70 more stamina + 50 strength and some secondary stats. I have no math to back that up, but i feel that tank dps matters a lot(10 man PoV).

Except you might get more DPS from upgrading your chest, because weapon DPS is fairly weak for us compared to most other classes. Remember that the only thing in our arsenal that scales with weapon DPS is Crusader Strike, while everything scales with AP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:09 pm

I'll probably be doing the chest, helmet or the legs first, as they have the biggest stat budget. As you said, depending on what stats are there. No real point wasting 1500 VP on a dodge/parry item.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:28 am

theckhd wrote:Except you might get more DPS from upgrading your chest, because weapon DPS is fairly weak for us compared to most other classes. Remember that the only thing in our arsenal that scales with weapon DPS is Crusader Strike, while everything scales with AP.


I stand corrected then. I wouldve thought that the strength, stamina + secondary stats on top of that dps would prove to be a higher dps increase than chest/legs/helm.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Fetzie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:55 am

Hespherus wrote:
theckhd wrote:Except you might get more DPS from upgrading your chest, because weapon DPS is fairly weak for us compared to most other classes. Remember that the only thing in our arsenal that scales with weapon DPS is Crusader Strike, while everything scales with AP.


I stand corrected then. I wouldve thought that the strength, stamina + secondary stats on top of that dps would prove to be a higher dps increase than chest/legs/helm.


Going from the LFR Kilrak weapon at 483 item level to the normal version (496) you get:

89 Sta
60 Str
39 Mastery (0.22)
41 Hit (0.4%)

Upgrading a Breastplate of the King's Guard from LFR (476) to normal (489) you get

196 Sta
131 Str
76 Mastery (0.42)
232 Armor
94 Haste (0.73%)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:41 am

How much more dps though?. Im not concerned with my survivability that much(i am hit/exp capped and 600k unbuffed though), i am concerned about killing stuff faster and doing my best to help that happening.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:31 am

Now that I have a few minutes, let's look at them directly. From the weapon comparison:
Code: Select all
|                                            |      |  cfg1 | cfg1 |  cfg2 | cfg2 |
| Weapon                                     | ilvl |   DPS |  HPS |   DPS |  HPS |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror (Raid Finder)       |  483 | 78251 |    0 | 85841 |    0 |
| Kilrak, Jaws of Terror                     |  496 | 78881 |    0 | 86405 |    0 |

Note that this is with SoT too, but that doesn't depend on weapon DPS and it's a small contribution. So you get about 630 DPS by upgrading Kilrak by 13 ilvls, or about 560 DPS if you're already at hit-cap. The actual value will be closer to the first value, assuming you're reforging for hit/exp caps.

Using Fetzie's numbers, you get 196 STA and 94 haste by upgrading the breastplate. Nothing else gives a DPS contribution. At 100k Vengeance, strength gives you about 1.31 DPS per point. The strength is going to give you about 257 DPS, and the haste about 172 DPS, for a total of 429 DPS from upgrading the chest. If the other secondary stat had been a DPS stat as well (ex: hit or exp), then we'd be effectively getting another 76 haste, for an additional 139 DPS, giving us 568. Not quite the match of the weapon upgrade, but awfully close.

So the weapon will probably edge out the chest/legs/helm slots for raw DPS. Especially on items that have reduced strength itemization.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby DisRuptive1 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 pm

Found this on MMO-Champion:

Enchantments using the Real PPM system will now generate two buffs simultaneously, rather than simply refreshing the duration of an existing effect.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:01 am

Certainly of relevance, though I don't know that it will change the results very much. Tlitp has been working on the enchant modeling code (I think), so this will probably complicate his job (more states to consider).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:27 am

I'm just wondering if those double buffs will stack, or it's just a cosmetic thing to make tracking the buffs easier.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:03 am

They stack. The change is a response to dual wield classes taking a nerf when they moved to RPPM and the buffs stopped stacking.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:41 am

Hi, I got a short question considering AP,
is this still true in MoP?

1 strength = 2 AP.
Autoattack scales like this: 14 AP = 1 DPS

also someone told me that 1 Strength = 0.9 parry rating

true or false and if false what are the right values? :)

is there a post explaining how the new vengeance works exactly? I wasn't able to find one :)

thank you very much in advance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Hespherus » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:55 am

On the first page of this thread, and if im not mistaken and am interpreting those graphs correctly, 1 strength is roughly 1.3 dps. You get 13 dps from 10 strength.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:01 am

1 strength is not = 13 dps, it contributes 13 dps (provided you interpret the graphs correctly, I haven't checked)

14 AP = 1 dps (on the weapon dps).
14 AP also increases the AP component of scaling, while increasing the weapon damage component, so abilities with weapon damage and AP scaling double dip into AP.

As for how mcuh AP STR (or AGI) contributes, I am unsure - I am working from 1 base unit = 2 AP, but the ingame tooltip disagrees with me (though the ingame tooltip disagreed at the time where it was known to be tru as well).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:20 pm

ok thanks that's what I was looking for.

now a concrete explanation how vengeance works exactly would be awesome (I tried to find it here but my search skills seem to be non-present today...) as they changed vengeance to not skale with overdeath damage, Stamina should make a, even tho it would be tiny I guess, DPS contribution, doesn't it?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:03 pm

Nooska wrote:1 strength is not = 13 dps, it contributes 13 dps (provided you interpret the graphs correctly, I haven't checked)


It's 1.3 DPS per strength, the plots show DPS per 10 itemization points.

Nooska wrote:14 AP also increases the AP component of scaling, while increasing the weapon damage component, so abilities with weapon damage and AP scaling double dip into AP.

While true, we don't have any more abilities that do this. HotR was the last one, and now just scales off of normalized weapon damage.

Nooska wrote:As for how mcuh AP STR (or AGI) contributes, I am unsure - I am working from 1 base unit = 2 AP, but the ingame tooltip disagrees with me (though the ingame tooltip disagreed at the time where it was known to be tru as well).

It's 2 points of AP per point of strength. The exact formula is in stat_model:
Code: Select all
player.ap=floor((base.ap+gear.ap+(player.str-10).*cnv.str_ap+extra.ap ...
          +player.VengAP+consum.ap).*mdf.AP);
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:27 pm

Schroom wrote:now a concrete explanation how vengeance works exactly would be awesome (I tried to find it here but my search skills seem to be non-present today...) as they changed vengeance to not skale with overdeath damage, Stamina should make a, even tho it would be tiny I guess, DPS contribution, doesn't it?

It averages out to 40% of the boss's pre-mitigation DPS output (2% of damage done in the last 20 seconds, or 0.02*(DPS*20)=0.4*DPS). I'm not sure I've seen a good explanation of how the overkill suppression works - my guess is that they hard-coded certain abilities like Annihilate (Spirit Kings) to generate Vengeance based on damage done instead of pre-mitigation DPS. It's also possible that they just capped the Vengeance gain from any single attack based on your health though.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:43 pm

exactly, so if the last one would be true. Stamina would have a (if even very small) impact on our DPS :> just finding this interesting ^^
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:45 am

Schroom wrote:exactly, so if the last one would be true. Stamina would have a (if even very small) impact on our DPS :> just finding this interesting ^^

Not in normal circumstances. It would only kick in on attacks that you'd have to cheese with Ardent Defender (or similar cooldowns) to survive. Most boss encounters don't have that sort of mechanic.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby econ21 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:33 am

I am sorry for asking a daft question, but in the stats dps calculations why does the value of expertise drop after 7.5%? I had got it in my mind from the holy power/control arguments about gearing for survivability that expertise had a constant value up to 15%. Am I wrong or if not, what changes when we consider dps rather than survivability?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby lythac » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:19 am

Expertise before 7.5% -

Decreases boss chance to dodge.
Increases spell hit (if you have 7.5% hit takes you to spell hit cap)

Expertise after 7.5% -

Decreases boss chance to parry.



Our spell based HP generators generate HP on cast, so hitting or missing doesn't matter for them.

I think.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby boneyjellyfish » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:24 am

Does Shield of the Righteous provide the buff on cast or on hit?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:26 am

on cast, iirc
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