Valor reward discussion

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 am

Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Err... what class would that be?

Getting rid of it would help clean up loot tables, but add to loot drama. But it doesn't make sense to get rid of int plate as you would still need int weapons and offhands, and they aren't going to do an int shield just for shammies.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:58 am

Darielle wrote:- It would be even more critical for a "hardcore" raider in the first few weeks becuase they ARE undergeared and they're going into Heroic modes. The ability to have had Shado-Pan trinkets at the end of week 2/3 when you've maybe had one/two chance(s) at your one raid trinket would have been pretty damn huge going into checks like Heroic Gara'jal. While they don't have to worry about people being ungemmed or unenchanted, they still have to squeeze dps.
- Raid enchants ARE gated by Rep. Having Dancing Steel, Jade Spirit is big.
- "Hardcore" raiders wind up in a position where they benefit hugely from maintaining multiple alts at as high as level as possible. Especially when Blizzard is happy to feed into situations where certain classes are hilariously good at trivialising mechanics that wind up being unbalanced otherwise. Unlike later tiers where you are at your worst case fully farmed from previous-tier-Heroic-BiS on your alts, this time you're not.
- Even Reps where you don't have a gear piece you can buy immediately award a 489 epic on hitting Exalted.


I think this is the main reason hardcore raiders are annoyed. It's the first few weeks that are frustrating, because there's so much to do and so little time to do it in. By now, a lot of us are past the valor gear (in fact, there are no more valor upgrades for my tanking set at all), so capping each week isn't critical because we're almost certain to go into 5.1 at the 3000 cap. I may still be picking up off-spec gear, but that's not super important to raid progression as I don't go Ret for anything that isn't already trivial.

Luckily, it lets up once the reps are finished. I can skip almost all of the dailies now, and just go back to do a few for achievements when they're available. Valor capping is still a bit of a pain if you plan on doing it on more than one character, though. Doing it on one is easy enough if you're doing all the LFRs available and clearing most of the raid instances, but it's still a pretty big time sink. Doing it on 2 takes some planning still, unless you have lots of time to throw at it (grind out cap on one, then take advantage of the +50% bonus on the other). I feel like they could buff valor by ~50% across the board and it would still feel a little slow.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:03 am

theckhd wrote:Luckily, it lets up once the reps are finished. I can skip almost all of the dailies now, and just go back to do a few for achievements when they're available. Valor capping is still a bit of a pain if you plan on doing it on more than one character, though. Doing it on one is easy enough if you're doing all the LFRs available and clearing most of the raid instances, but it's still a pretty big time sink.


Yep, add in the poor itemization of much of the gear (my spriest wants haste, not all that damn mastery), and even if you don't have all the valor gear, if you've got at least 476, most of the valor items really aren't worth it.

Much better to go into 5.1 with 3000 valor, and be able to upgrade your 2 best items by 8 ilvls each right off the bat.

Now the question is, how are the DMF trinkets affected by the ilvl upgrade, and at least for dps classes should they be upgraded first?
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Stubblerump » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:54 am

Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Or go back to Int tanking for pallies.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:01 am

degre wrote:
bldavis wrote:and im sorry but this is YOU
that isnt the same for everyone

Same applies to your statements ;)

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:32 am

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Still don't know why they don't just combine spirit and hit into the same stat. As it is, there are only 2 int based classes that don't want to see spirit on their gear.


Maybe then we can finally have holy paladins wear Str plate and get rid of the abomination that is Int plate.


How would combining spirit and hit fix that problem? They still wouldn't want str/hit gear.

Or are you saying that when they consolidate hit and spirit, they should go ahead and do the same with STR/Int, or re-work holy paladin mechanics (which is fair IMO - all it would take is a "Guarded by the Light"-esque passive that reads, "Strength bonuses from gear reward intellect instead").


All they would need is for all spells that currently scale with SP to instead scale with AP. Done.

Oh no, Holy Paladins' Crusader Strikes and Melee hit for non-irrelevant damage. Teh horrors.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:33 am

halabar wrote:
Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Err... what class would that be?

Getting rid of it would help clean up loot tables, but add to loot drama. But it doesn't make sense to get rid of int plate as you would still need int weapons and offhands, and they aren't going to do an int shield just for shammies.


Yeah this is true, having them move entirely to Str would mean that certain weapons/OHs are now relegated to 2 specs of one class, as opposed to 3 specs of 2 classes. I think this can be dealt with.

Actually, all they'd need to do is put a conversion the other way, such that healing spells scale from both AP and SP, and then Paladins could continue using SP weapons and Shaman shields. It would be a little awkward, less so than having Paladins use Int exclusively imo.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Shoju » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:47 am

I always favored moving Holy Paladins to Mail, and giving them something that upped their armor to plate levels while wearing it. It would be awkward as well, but what else can you do? Add another class that wears plate and uses int? What would that be?
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:49 am

UH dks?
make frost the str melee spec, and UH more of a ranged/melee class that is more focused on casting deathcoil even more - think an unholy retadin, with deathcoil replacing exorcism and giving them a judgement - esque ranged ability

some how i doubt that would ever happen, due to all the UH dks going WTF MAN WHY YOU FUCKING WITH US AGAIN!

i would point out that switching healadins to mail would put 3 specs on int mail, but than again there is agil leather
2 specs of monks, 3 rogue specs, and 2 druid specs.... :roll:
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Worldie » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:52 am

Shoju wrote:I always favored moving Holy Paladins to Mail, and giving them something that upped their armor to plate levels while wearing it. It would be awkward as well, but what else can you do? Add another class that wears plate and uses int? What would that be?

Adding another class (no idea what, blizzard duty to invent one :P ) that uses Int plate is probably the best choice. Making holy pala wear mail would create an awkard situation where pala tier would have to be both mail and plate.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:55 am

just have a different model for the mail gear (which is never going to happen, it means more work for the art team) and what is the issue?
have str/haste gear with tier bonuses that say when in prot - this, and when in ret - this and have int mail for holy
same tokens for both, after all bear/cats shared tier up til now
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:04 pm

Worldie wrote:
Shoju wrote:I always favored moving Holy Paladins to Mail, and giving them something that upped their armor to plate levels while wearing it. It would be awkward as well, but what else can you do? Add another class that wears plate and uses int? What would that be?

Adding another class (no idea what, blizzard duty to invent one :P ) that uses Int plate is probably the best choice. Making holy pala wear mail would create an awkard situation where pala tier would have to be both mail and plate.


And I have this wierd feeling that despite what seems like should just be a database entry change, that such a change would actually be pretty big. I chalk this change (making int plate not for 1 spec - either be removing it or making others use it) to one of those things that it would make a lot of sense to do, but that probably has some 'hidden' implementation-side issues preventing it from happening.

So yeah, I think it's more likely to get another int-plate class/spec than to remove the item type. Gimme a plate wearing ranged class! I somehow doubt that DKs will gain a ranged spellcaster spec at this point. It seems like that would be like Hunters getting a 'pet free' spec. I think it's a real alienation concern, let alone implementation/balance issues.

Now that deviated fully, one thing I think can be said about the VP/tokens/rep situation:
From a systems perspective, it is a great solution: everyone hates it, nearly equally ;)
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Shoju » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:17 pm

You have no idea the blood that would be spilled over giving Dk's a mana bar.

You'd only have mail for the holy set, not a huge deal. would be pretty easy to clone stats from R Shammy gear. I think an STR to Int type conversion would end poorly in PvP.

I don't see a lot of options that pan out well for int plate. Making another int plate class means that they would either need to be a caster that cared about spirit, or you introduce even more caster plate, (or do another spirit to hit conversion?)

And then there is balancing 3 more plate specs, at least one of which would be mana based.

The things I'm thinking of would all just be "knock offs" of a paladin / Warrior / DK, or a "knockoff" of a profession (Engineering)
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm

THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:47 pm

Darielle wrote:THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.


I would probably just flip all the tables if they actually made a paladin dps caster spec.
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