Valor reward discussion

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Passionario » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:18 am

degre wrote:I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.


Peer pressure is an important factor, as well. If you're not doing everything you can to improve your character, you're the lazy weakest link that is letting the other 9/24 people in your raid team down. And in the absence of artificial caps, you will never be doing enough.
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
User avatar
Passionario
 
Posts: 3389
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:23 am

I think you're mostly right. But then again, this is precisely the reason we went from a "valor for first dungeons each day" to "valor for the first seven dungeons each week" to "fck this, you always get valor, only more for the first each day" (and people are STILL complaining).

This is simply following the current trend: you can reach most meaningful rewards without pushing too hard, but, if you happen to really push some content or other, you get extra fun/cosmetic thingies.

Right now, PVE-side, it works for dungeons (achieve, less valor), challenge modes (less valor, mount, title, transmog), LFR (more chances at coin loot, less valor). The only two places where it doesn't work yet are dailies and raiding.

As an aside, to make it happen in raiding, one should be able to re-try downed bosses of a specific week for some reason (not loot-related) like trying an achievement, training, or a little bit extra valor.

Daily-side, there is no limit to how far you can push, and the reward remains linear - always valor, rep and baubles. The only "true" limit, is the amount of dailies available in a single day. That's around 50 AFAIK. Per day. Eeeeeevery day.

That's mostly what I find odd - the pressure to do as many dailies as possible is much higher than, say, doing a second LFR, or an umptenth dungeon. Lines were drawn for pretty much every type of content. The absence of one for dailies is a very weird situation, the consequences of which can be read troughout this topic.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:53 am

Sagara wrote:That's mostly what I find odd - the pressure to do as many dailies as possible is much higher than, say, doing a second LFR, or an umptenth dungeon. Lines were drawn for pretty much every type of content. The absence of one for dailies is a very weird situation, the consequences of which can be read troughout this topic.


Passionario wrote:
degre wrote:I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.


Peer pressure is an important factor, as well. If you're not doing everything you can to improve your character, you're the lazy weakest link that is letting the other 9/24 people in your raid team down. And in the absence of artificial caps, you will never be doing enough.


This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sagara » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 am

Sad, but true to a point (replace RL by *whatever loudmouth you have in your raid*).
And sometimes that means the very player forces himself past reason.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 pm

halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7418
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:32 pm

bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that


lol, just lol

so what YOU are saying, is that I should tell my wife to F off, skip work when I can, and do whatever else is necessary to valor and rep cap.

So even if I'm the third best geared toon in the raid, that's not enough? And I'm sure as not going to give the guy who is the mage in my raid a hard time about any gear when I know what time he does put in, and what stuff he's dealing with in real life.

Perhaps I should troll the PK armoury and see just how geared YOUR raid is.. might be interesting.

Gonna update my sig, I actually want that bear rug right now.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:40 pm

once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such


Who actually looks at optimisation as a step by step affair?

If "buttons" is an issue, and the raid strat could be improved/tweaked, all optimisation can be done in one go for anyone actually looking to optimise. Quite probably done in one hour. The raid strat alone can most likely up damage by 20% for very little actual effort.

Only real example I can think of it being our fault is when we caused the destruction of the statue at Jade Temple. Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't follow the lore extremely closely, but everywhere else it just looked like we were helping clean up messes already in progress to gain favor with the factions there.

Excepting maybe the Vale, since we convinced them to reopen it, which allowed the Mogu back in (though a gate is hardly an obstruction for the Mantids, unless the closed gate represented some magical seal that was broken on the entire zone.)


The way they've done it is to make things like a timeline, so while it may not feel like it, all of those thigns are linked. Take Taran Zhu for example. Our actions in Jade Forest pushed him, when we're in Kun Lai he starts succumbing to Hate, and in Townlong we've freed him and he's vanquishing the Sha.

The Mantid don't follow this - SHek'zeer was apparently insane even before the Paragons were being preserved, but that's not really something the Shado Pan had control over.

Why? If people are willing to go the distance, let them...

There are only two reasons why you would want to place a cap is because you feel compelled and can't stop. You feel like you have to do it and can't stop. I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.

Well, another comes to mind, you might actually stop and simply being annoyed at other who have more time, and I don't see this either as a good excuse for placing a cap.


And yet, many things in the game are no longer specifically because the game design incentivising something promoted activities which eroded people's interest in the game in the long run. The "if people are willing to, let them" thing just doesn't work out.
Darielle
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 pm

halabar wrote:
bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that


lol, just lol

so what YOU are saying, is that I should tell my wife to F off, skip work when I can, and do whatever else is necessary to valor and rep cap.

So even if I'm the third best geared toon in the raid, that's not enough? And I'm sure as not going to give the guy who is the mage in my raid a hard time about any gear when I know what time he does put in, and what stuff he's dealing with in real life.

Perhaps I should troll the PK armoury and see just how geared YOUR raid is.. might be interesting.

Gonna update my sig, I actually want that bear rug right now.

go ahead, check our armory
we have had one raid, we NEVER claimed to be hardcore raiders, and you might want to see just how much gear i have made for my guildies
i wasnt saying you have to abandon your social life, i was just saying while you are playing and not raiding you should put in all the work you can into getting better gear

i know we suck, but if i can help lessen the gear need, well maybe that will help get a few more points of dps that might mean the difference between a wipe and a boss kill.

are you done viewing everything as a personal attack?


during raids, yes by all means adjust strat, but that is done in raid, my point was stuff you do outside of raid hours


and honestly, limited play time, and gear being locked behind factions is all the more reason why we should have multiple ways of getting rep
im sorry if that makes sense :roll:
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7418
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:16 pm

bldavis wrote:we have had one raid, we NEVER claimed to be hardcore raiders, and you might want to see just how much gear i have made for my guildies
i wasnt saying you have to abandon your social life, i was just saying while you are playing and not raiding you should put in all the work you can into getting better gear

i know we suck, but if i can help lessen the gear need, well maybe that will help get a few more points of dps that might mean the difference between a wipe and a boss kill.

are you done viewing everything as a personal attack?

during raids, yes by all means adjust strat, but that is done in raid, my point was stuff you do outside of raid hours


You certainly try to act like a hardcore.

So working on any alt or farm or pet battle is an afront to my raid group, meaning that I haven't devoted myself fully. Forgive me in actually playing a game.

And if I see things as a personal attack, it might just be that you seem to take your "hardcore" stances in reply to my posts. They were amusing, now they are just tiring...
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Back on topic (sort of)... saw a good idea on another forum.

Trade 100 Lesser Coins for 1000 rep of the faction of your choice. Provides another use for those, and an additional rep source.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Don't make me turn this car around...

Seriously though, in bldavis's first post, I didn't read it as "everyone has to do this, including you" so much as "you can improve your dps through better gear." His second post seems to take a somewhat more hardcore stance, but as a guildie and fellow raider, I can tell you he certainly doesn't enforce those standards, even if he personally feels that people are being lazy (not saying that he does, one way or the other.)

And he replied to your post because you were the one that said what he wanted to comment on. I can almost guarantee it would have been the same response if it were anyone else other than you that had said it.

I think everyone needs to take a step back before they post and realize that just because someone responds to your post, doesn't mean they're talking to you directly.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3986
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:34 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Don't make me turn this car around...

Seriously though, in bldavis's first post, I didn't read it as "everyone has to do this, including you" so much as "you can improve your dps through better gear." His second post seems to take a somewhat more hardcore stance, but as a guildie and fellow raider, I can tell you he certainly doesn't enforce those standards, even if he personally feels that people are being lazy (not saying that he does, one way or the other.)


Dunno, but he certainly seems to be supporting the unhealthy view of dailies/rep that I was mocking.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:11 pm

like skye said, you just happened to say what i was responding to
it wasnt directly at you

im sorry if i come off as a hardcore raider, but i do try to do everything in my power to help my raid team

as far as daily supporting, i fucking hate them
i cant bring myself to do them on my horde dk cause i am still burnt out on them from my hunter
i do support doing them if it is your only toon and you have gear that can be unlocked through rep BEING THEY ARE THE ONLY WAY TO GET REP

give us another way to get rep decently with the factions and it wouldnt be an issue....
if you have read the rests of my posts in this thread esp, i am supporting that even more than just dealing with the shit that blizzard has given us to deal with and getting your character the best they can be
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7418
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:55 pm

Well, this thread quickly went from discussing valor and rep locked grinds for rep locked gear and more rep locked grinds to...a clusterfuck of only green quality.

So uncommon, but not rare.
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4002
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:57 pm

I actually don't think this is as much of an issue with hardcore raiders. Sure they min/max and squeeze every bit of performance out of their toons, but they are not the ones thinking "if only I can get that X piece of gear from the Shadow Pan, I could make up for the lack of DPS from <name of ungemmed, unenchanted, and generally sub-optimal raid member> and we could reach this enrage timer!"

As has been pointed out, hardcore raiders can farm gear from raids because they can clear norms in blues.

So it's just the responsible norm/casual raiders who feel like getting a piece of gear could make a difference and therefore feel the daily grind is non-optional.

Still, even if I was a leet raider, I might be annoyed that I can't spend the valour points I rightfully earned without doing the rep grind, considering that the points are non-transferable. It's not like you can grind the reps on your alt and use your otherwise unusable valour points from your un-repped main to gear up your repped alt.

Which, by the way, would be an OK way to handle the VP situation.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest