Valor reward discussion

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:32 pm

bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that


lol, just lol

so what YOU are saying, is that I should tell my wife to F off, skip work when I can, and do whatever else is necessary to valor and rep cap.

So even if I'm the third best geared toon in the raid, that's not enough? And I'm sure as not going to give the guy who is the mage in my raid a hard time about any gear when I know what time he does put in, and what stuff he's dealing with in real life.

Perhaps I should troll the PK armoury and see just how geared YOUR raid is.. might be interesting.

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:40 pm

once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such


Who actually looks at optimisation as a step by step affair?

If "buttons" is an issue, and the raid strat could be improved/tweaked, all optimisation can be done in one go for anyone actually looking to optimise. Quite probably done in one hour. The raid strat alone can most likely up damage by 20% for very little actual effort.

Only real example I can think of it being our fault is when we caused the destruction of the statue at Jade Temple. Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't follow the lore extremely closely, but everywhere else it just looked like we were helping clean up messes already in progress to gain favor with the factions there.

Excepting maybe the Vale, since we convinced them to reopen it, which allowed the Mogu back in (though a gate is hardly an obstruction for the Mantids, unless the closed gate represented some magical seal that was broken on the entire zone.)


The way they've done it is to make things like a timeline, so while it may not feel like it, all of those thigns are linked. Take Taran Zhu for example. Our actions in Jade Forest pushed him, when we're in Kun Lai he starts succumbing to Hate, and in Townlong we've freed him and he's vanquishing the Sha.

The Mantid don't follow this - SHek'zeer was apparently insane even before the Paragons were being preserved, but that's not really something the Shado Pan had control over.

Why? If people are willing to go the distance, let them...

There are only two reasons why you would want to place a cap is because you feel compelled and can't stop. You feel like you have to do it and can't stop. I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.

Well, another comes to mind, you might actually stop and simply being annoyed at other who have more time, and I don't see this either as a good excuse for placing a cap.


And yet, many things in the game are no longer specifically because the game design incentivising something promoted activities which eroded people's interest in the game in the long run. The "if people are willing to, let them" thing just doesn't work out.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 pm

halabar wrote:
bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that


lol, just lol

so what YOU are saying, is that I should tell my wife to F off, skip work when I can, and do whatever else is necessary to valor and rep cap.

So even if I'm the third best geared toon in the raid, that's not enough? And I'm sure as not going to give the guy who is the mage in my raid a hard time about any gear when I know what time he does put in, and what stuff he's dealing with in real life.

Perhaps I should troll the PK armoury and see just how geared YOUR raid is.. might be interesting.

Gonna update my sig, I actually want that bear rug right now.

go ahead, check our armory
we have had one raid, we NEVER claimed to be hardcore raiders, and you might want to see just how much gear i have made for my guildies
i wasnt saying you have to abandon your social life, i was just saying while you are playing and not raiding you should put in all the work you can into getting better gear

i know we suck, but if i can help lessen the gear need, well maybe that will help get a few more points of dps that might mean the difference between a wipe and a boss kill.

are you done viewing everything as a personal attack?


during raids, yes by all means adjust strat, but that is done in raid, my point was stuff you do outside of raid hours


and honestly, limited play time, and gear being locked behind factions is all the more reason why we should have multiple ways of getting rep
im sorry if that makes sense :roll:
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:16 pm

bldavis wrote:we have had one raid, we NEVER claimed to be hardcore raiders, and you might want to see just how much gear i have made for my guildies
i wasnt saying you have to abandon your social life, i was just saying while you are playing and not raiding you should put in all the work you can into getting better gear

i know we suck, but if i can help lessen the gear need, well maybe that will help get a few more points of dps that might mean the difference between a wipe and a boss kill.

are you done viewing everything as a personal attack?

during raids, yes by all means adjust strat, but that is done in raid, my point was stuff you do outside of raid hours


You certainly try to act like a hardcore.

So working on any alt or farm or pet battle is an afront to my raid group, meaning that I haven't devoted myself fully. Forgive me in actually playing a game.

And if I see things as a personal attack, it might just be that you seem to take your "hardcore" stances in reply to my posts. They were amusing, now they are just tiring...
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Back on topic (sort of)... saw a good idea on another forum.

Trade 100 Lesser Coins for 1000 rep of the faction of your choice. Provides another use for those, and an additional rep source.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Don't make me turn this car around...

Seriously though, in bldavis's first post, I didn't read it as "everyone has to do this, including you" so much as "you can improve your dps through better gear." His second post seems to take a somewhat more hardcore stance, but as a guildie and fellow raider, I can tell you he certainly doesn't enforce those standards, even if he personally feels that people are being lazy (not saying that he does, one way or the other.)

And he replied to your post because you were the one that said what he wanted to comment on. I can almost guarantee it would have been the same response if it were anyone else other than you that had said it.

I think everyone needs to take a step back before they post and realize that just because someone responds to your post, doesn't mean they're talking to you directly.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:34 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Don't make me turn this car around...

Seriously though, in bldavis's first post, I didn't read it as "everyone has to do this, including you" so much as "you can improve your dps through better gear." His second post seems to take a somewhat more hardcore stance, but as a guildie and fellow raider, I can tell you he certainly doesn't enforce those standards, even if he personally feels that people are being lazy (not saying that he does, one way or the other.)


Dunno, but he certainly seems to be supporting the unhealthy view of dailies/rep that I was mocking.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:11 pm

like skye said, you just happened to say what i was responding to
it wasnt directly at you

im sorry if i come off as a hardcore raider, but i do try to do everything in my power to help my raid team

as far as daily supporting, i fucking hate them
i cant bring myself to do them on my horde dk cause i am still burnt out on them from my hunter
i do support doing them if it is your only toon and you have gear that can be unlocked through rep BEING THEY ARE THE ONLY WAY TO GET REP

give us another way to get rep decently with the factions and it wouldnt be an issue....
if you have read the rests of my posts in this thread esp, i am supporting that even more than just dealing with the shit that blizzard has given us to deal with and getting your character the best they can be
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:55 pm

Well, this thread quickly went from discussing valor and rep locked grinds for rep locked gear and more rep locked grinds to...a clusterfuck of only green quality.

So uncommon, but not rare.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:57 pm

I actually don't think this is as much of an issue with hardcore raiders. Sure they min/max and squeeze every bit of performance out of their toons, but they are not the ones thinking "if only I can get that X piece of gear from the Shadow Pan, I could make up for the lack of DPS from <name of ungemmed, unenchanted, and generally sub-optimal raid member> and we could reach this enrage timer!"

As has been pointed out, hardcore raiders can farm gear from raids because they can clear norms in blues.

So it's just the responsible norm/casual raiders who feel like getting a piece of gear could make a difference and therefore feel the daily grind is non-optional.

Still, even if I was a leet raider, I might be annoyed that I can't spend the valour points I rightfully earned without doing the rep grind, considering that the points are non-transferable. It's not like you can grind the reps on your alt and use your otherwise unusable valour points from your un-repped main to gear up your repped alt.

Which, by the way, would be an OK way to handle the VP situation.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:08 pm

honestly, you can be hardcore and be a only partial clearing of normal guild
hardcore is about how you play, not your progression
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:45 pm

Koatanga wrote:I actually don't think this is as much of an issue with hardcore raiders. Sure they min/max and squeeze every bit of performance out of their toons, but they are not the ones thinking "if only I can get that X piece of gear from the Shadow Pan, I could make up for the lack of DPS from <name of ungemmed, unenchanted, and generally sub-optimal raid member> and we could reach this enrage timer!"

As has been pointed out, hardcore raiders can farm gear from raids because they can clear norms in blues.

So it's just the responsible norm/casual raiders who feel like getting a piece of gear could make a difference and therefore feel the daily grind is non-optional.

Still, even if I was a leet raider, I might be annoyed that I can't spend the valour points I rightfully earned without doing the rep grind, considering that the points are non-transferable. It's not like you can grind the reps on your alt and use your otherwise unusable valour points from your un-repped main to gear up your repped alt.

Which, by the way, would be an OK way to handle the VP situation.


There's 2 aspects to this however

- It would be even more critical for a "hardcore" raider in the first few weeks becuase they ARE undergeared and they're going into Heroic modes. The ability to have had Shado-Pan trinkets at the end of week 2/3 when you've maybe had one/two chance(s) at your one raid trinket would have been pretty damn huge going into checks like Heroic Gara'jal. While they don't have to worry about people being ungemmed or unenchanted, they still have to squeeze dps.
- Raid enchants ARE gated by Rep. Having Dancing Steel, Jade Spirit is big.
- "Hardcore" raiders wind up in a position where they benefit hugely from maintaining multiple alts at as high as level as possible. Especially when Blizzard is happy to feed into situations where certain classes are hilariously good at trivialising mechanics that wind up being unbalanced otherwise. Unlike later tiers where you are at your worst case fully farmed from previous-tier-Heroic-BiS on your alts, this time you're not.
- Even Reps where you don't have a gear piece you can buy immediately award a 489 epic on hitting Exalted.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:14 pm

The other point that I'll bring back here is that my real beef with the dailies is that they are in fact daily. I'd have MUCH less of an issue with it if I could log in on a Saturday and grind out 5 days worth in one shot. The daily part is what sucks.

As as for being a "responsible casual raider", it will be a lot easier with 5.1, when you can LFR/heroic your way to the valor cap in a day or two, and do enough dailies to keep yourself stocked in coins, and you're done.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:20 pm

are they removing the rep requirement on valor gear? :?
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:22 pm

Not likely, but you'll have had far more time to grind it out on your various characters to the point that ideally you'll only need to collect valor and whatever the newest rep is (assuming they're gating it behind new reps and not just replacing the current valor gear.)
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby jere » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:27 pm

And you can spend valor on non rep stuff: gear upgrades
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:40 pm

if you still need gear, you still need the rep, which isnt cahnging, it is just from revered to exalted that is going faster

the only addition is being able to upgrade your gear with valor
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:35 pm

bldavis wrote:if you still need gear, you still need the rep, which isnt cahnging, it is just from revered to exalted that is going faster

the only addition is being able to upgrade your gear with valor


This.

And assuming by that point that you've either won some gear from LFR, Sha, BMAH, etc, doing the ilvl upgrades is a better way to spend your valor than on buying an epic that will have a better version drop in the raid next week.

Also, upgrade your best item first, as that will be the one least likely to be replaced soon.

I know you still want me to go buy all the valor gear, but I'm going to maximize the return on my time as best I can.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:58 pm

bldavis wrote:if you still need gear, you still need the rep, which isnt cahnging, it is just from revered to exalted that is going faster

the only addition is being able to upgrade your gear with valor

Yes, but by the time 5.1 drops, even if you've only been doing 1-2 factions worth of dailies every weekend, you'll be a lot closer to Revered (if not having hit Revered) so the rep part becomes far less of a burden.

If you've been avoiding all dailies like the plague, then yes, the only real option is the ilvl upgrade.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
bldavis wrote:if you still need gear, you still need the rep, which isnt cahnging, it is just from revered to exalted that is going faster

the only addition is being able to upgrade your gear with valor

Yes, but by the time 5.1 drops, even if you've only been doing 1-2 factions worth of dailies every weekend, you'll be a lot closer to Revered (if not having hit Revered) so the rep part becomes far less of a burden.

If you've been avoiding all dailies like the plague, then yes, the only real option is the ilvl upgrade.


If I want to spend all my time in game when not in raid doing dailies, yeah...

But I have alts to tend for, AH to goblin, and sometimes I just feel like camping rares for drops while alt-tabbed to football....


Edit:

Also, with 5.1 in mind, I'm going to try to stay as close to valor capped as I can, and only buying rep gear if I'm about to go over. I don't want to hit 5.1 with 250 valor to my name. I'd much rather be able to upgrade my strongest pieces right away. I bought the valor next this past weekend, so I'm expecting 5.1 to drop before I hit 3000 again.
Last edited by halabar on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:11 pm

idgara what you do
i was just saying if someone is still needing gear, and wants to purchase it, then they still need to use rep to get them
i am all for upgrading your best slot first, but once they are fully upgraded, why not fill in low slots?

and im sorry but this is YOU
that isnt the same for everyone
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:14 pm

Alts are included in both of my statements (since a lot of people avoid the dailies on their alts or complete them at a much less routine rate.)

Also, just because I may have described part of your playstyle, doesn't mean I'm referring only to you. You said yourself the only time you really do dailies is on the weekends. Once 5.1 comes around, you'll be considerably closer to Revered. Given that most people aren't going to change that playstyle to suddenly include more and more dailies, unless you're completely avoiding them, Revered will eventually happen. At that point it's no longer a factor and the VP attained through any method becomes viable to spend on Valor gear.

The only way that falls apart is if they introduce new faction reps (with the same bottleneck of dailies) for the new Valor gear.

Edit: Holy long sentences, Batman.
Last edited by Skye1013 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:15 pm

bldavis wrote:idgara what you do
i was just saying if someone is still needing gear, and wants to purchase it, then they still need to use rep to get them
i am all for upgrading your best slot first, but once they are fully upgraded, why not fill in low slots?


Hopefully you've had some success in raid or LFR by that point, and have other gear that can be ilvl upgraded.

At least for my spriest, a lot of the valor gear is poorly itemized anyway, so upgrading a 476 or 483 from LFR is better than buying a poorly itemized rep valor purchase.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:22 pm

which is fine, if you get the drops
what if you are like klaud and nika in previous tiers and teh bosses horde all of a slot and laugh at you?
that is when a valor piece is prob a good idea
plus if you have everything else upgraded already

if you havent guessed, i am stating several weeks/months down the road, not the week it comes out
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bldavis
 
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:25 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Alts are included in both of my statements (since a lot of people avoid the dailies on their alts or complete them at a much less routine rate.)

Also, just because I may have described part of your playstyle, doesn't mean I'm referring only to you. You said yourself the only time you really do dailies is on the weekends. Once 5.1 comes around, you'll be considerably closer to Revered. Given that most people aren't going to change that playstyle to suddenly include more and more dailies, unless you're completely avoiding them, Revered will eventually happen, at which point it's no longer a factor and the VP attained through any method becomes viable to spend on Valor gear.

The only way that falls apart is if they introduce new faction reps (with the same bottleneck of dailies) for the new Valor gear.


Well, they are introducing 1 new rep per faction... :-)

And my guess is that 5.1 is going to drop the week after T-Day, considering the last build was marked release candidate.

For the alts the rep boost in 5.1 will help, but I'll really only going to do enough dailies to keep them in bonus rolls. Otherwise LFR is good enough to gear them. Alts is alts.

My spriest is revered with GL and Klaxx, and eventually I'll get SP for the mount. But I have no professions that otherwise need any of the factions, so it would just be for vanity.
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