Valor reward discussion

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:39 am

no, but it will help
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:39 am

Koatanga wrote:Sorry, why does there need to be incentive to do dailies? I understand that Bliz feels the need to make us grind rep, but why is dailies THE mechanism for it?


Read Theck's replies for a basic run down.

In essence dailies is "solo level 90 questing content," something that has been asked for repeatedly by a subsection of the player population, with each reputation faction telling a progressive story. Since it is a new form of end game content they're putting rewards of end game quality on it.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:47 am

halabar wrote:In my raid group, we have a boomer/tree that is struggling to gear up both specs, and a few others who have time commitments that hinder the rep grinding. Making some adjustments to the current system could really help.


In my raid group I don't care if people do rep stuff, as long as they're making an effort to be heroic dungeon geared I'm happy. Which seems to be sorting itself out now.

Blizzard said Rep grinding for group play is not mandatory so I'm passing that along.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Flex wrote:Blizzard said Rep grinding for group play is not mandatory so I'm passing that along.

It's not mandatory to have 10 people in a 10-man raid, either, but you'd be stupid not to, and some of the DPS checks would be impossible or nearly so with entry-level gear.

Flex wrote:In essence dailies is "solo level 90 questing content," something that has been asked for repeatedly by a subsection of the player population, with each reputation faction telling a progressive story. Since it is a new form of end game content they're putting rewards of end game quality on it.

Repetitive dailies is not new, nor is it "solo level 90 questing content". We had max-level dailies in BC. There were max-level dailies in both Wrath and Cata as well. Nothing new there at all. Firelands dailies told a progressive story. Nothing new there.

What's new is forcing raiders to go through this slog of daily doldrums in order to "unlock" VP rewards in order to spend the VPs that they earn raiding.

I don't care if they want to offer leet purpz at exalted for doing 43 days of boring quests. Good for the people who last that long without putting a bullet through their computer.

But people who are not of that masochistic subsection should not have to grind rep to cash in the rewards earned outside of questing. We've earned the valour points; let us spend them.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Simple solution is don't do it.

If it is an aspect of the game you don't find fun don't fucking do it.

I don't feel and sympathy for people who use the words "force" or any of the various phrasings that make it sound that if you don't do it you can't play the game.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:43 pm

I take issue with that claim. In Burning Crusade, Badges of Justice didn't actually fill in any gaps at the cutting edge raid level. The item level was for 5 man heroics/10 man raids, not actual raids on the SSC/TK level. Even when they upgraded the gear, it was due to the release of Zul'Aman, a 10 man instance, and brought things up to that level, whereas 25 man raiding was still ahead. The whole "fill in the gaps" for raiding purposes didn't happen until Wrath.


The JP items in the Sunwell patch were 141 items; only Archimonde and Illidan drops were actually higher.
The itemisation on most of them was ~, but it was enough to make a lot of them better than the drops in BT/Hyjal, and they were selected to fill in holes that were harder to fill from raids at the time. The caster dagger for example, which was there to fill in the itemisation hole where non-sword casters had no option between Prince and Naj/Hyjal Trash.

With that said, the "fill in the gaps" was also completely taken over in Wrath. At that point, it started becoming about putting in items of slot types that they didn't want "cluttering loot tables", which slowly evolved into what we had in Cataclysm where entier slots just had nothing in the raid tier.

I don't feel and sympathy for people who use the words "force" or any of the various phrasings that make it sound that if you don't do it you can't play the game.


And the sad part is that a semantics objection overrides the major design point where when something is there and does incentivise doing X (power jump), it will happen. If something's meant to be an "alternate progression path", it has to actually be an alternate progression path, and not just be something that adds on to the "main progression path" to progress a person further; at that point it blurs into the "main progression path".

It's in the same playing field as the many design decisions they've made to remove the things people were incentivised into doing - like 10-man/25-man lockouts, farming for Black Lotus, Blasted Lands consumables etc. Dangling a carrot and then telling people they don't have to chase the carrot is just poor form.

A Valor Cap can fuel a common progression path from various activities. You can raid and get Valor. You can do Dailies and get Valor. You can do Scenarios and get Valor. You can LFR and get Valor. You can do Dungeons and get Valor.
If any of those activities only gives you 400 Valor for all your efforts (raiding), pushing you into Dailies/Scenarios/Dungeons to have to get the majority of it, then it's not really fulfilling the point of alternate progression.

So yes, it's absolutely right that in approaching it, they need to preserve the element of "alternate progression" and keep Dailies whole for those who view Dailies as the thing they do.
It's also absolutely right that it's a problem situation in just how badly people who aren't looking for Dailies as a progression path get bumped into them for an arbitrary reason. This compounds onto the fact that they removed Dungeon Tabards because they didn't want Dungeons dipping Rep, Valor and Loot, but they're just pushing an even more extreme situation with Dailies by having even more dipping through Rep, Valor, Loot, Patterns, Raid-Quality Enchants, Flavour Items, Cooking all working off that system.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Darielle wrote:
I take issue with that claim. In Burning Crusade, Badges of Justice didn't actually fill in any gaps at the cutting edge raid level. The item level was for 5 man heroics/10 man raids, not actual raids on the SSC/TK level. Even when they upgraded the gear, it was due to the release of Zul'Aman, a 10 man instance, and brought things up to that level, whereas 25 man raiding was still ahead. The whole "fill in the gaps" for raiding purposes didn't happen until Wrath.


The JP items in the Sunwell patch were 141 items; only Archimonde and Illidan drops were actually higher.
The itemisation on most of them was ~, but it was enough to make a lot of them better than the drops in BT/Hyjal, and they were selected to fill in holes that were harder to fill from raids at the time. The caster dagger for example, which was there to fill in the itemisation hole where non-sword casters had no option between Prince and Naj/Hyjal Trash.

With that said, the "fill in the gaps" was also completely taken over in Wrath. At that point, it started becoming about putting in items of slot types that they didn't want "cluttering loot tables", which slowly evolved into what we had in Cataclysm where entier slots just had nothing in the raid tier.


Right, they did add stuff when Sunwell came out, I forgot about that. But still then the gear was T6 equivalent, where the current endgame was a whole tier ahead. The point I was trying to make is that the original incarnation of badge gear simply wasn't for cutting edge raiders to fill in their gaps, it was for people to play catchup.

And yes, in Wrath they changed it to be endgame equivalent. I was taking issue with the claim that the "original purpose" was to fill in gaps for raiders.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:33 pm

does it really matter what something was originally meant for?
i mean ffs if we start that, only ~1% will see the top tier raid (vanilla naxx)
and dungeons will take upwards of 3-4 hours
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:47 am

Right, they did add stuff when Sunwell came out, I forgot about that. But still then the gear was T6 equivalent, where the current endgame was a whole tier ahead. The point I was trying to make is that the original incarnation of badge gear simply wasn't for cutting edge raiders to fill in their gaps, it was for people to play catchup.

And yes, in Wrath they changed it to be endgame equivalent. I was taking issue with the claim that the "original purpose" was to fill in gaps for raiders.


Sort of. The point in the Sunwell patch was to catch up on any slots that you might be missing from BT or there was an itemisation hole. While Wrath initially had Valor offer 213 which was same as Naxx-25, that soon was not actually endgame-equivalent when Heroics (or Hard Modes in Ulduar) actually became a thing. Even at release, Sarth-3D and Maly offered better items (Naxx wasn't really "cutting edge endgame").
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby jere » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:41 am

Well, the reason for what they did with Badges of Justice was at least promoted by Blizzard as a means for guilds to gear up new players so they didn't have to run new folks through old raid instances until they were geared up. A lot of this was done when they started taking out attunements as well. I won't say that raiders didn't use those pieces to fill in gaps, but the reasoning Blizzard used was more along the lines of helping out guilds that raid get new folks in and ready to go.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby degre » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:14 am

jere wrote:Well, the reason for what they did with Badges of Justice was at least promoted by Blizzard as a means for guilds to gear up new players so they didn't have to run new folks through old raid instances until they were geared up. A lot of this was done when they started taking out attunements as well. I won't say that raiders didn't use those pieces to fill in gaps, but the reasoning Blizzard used was more along the lines of helping out guilds that raid get new folks in and ready to go.

Making them raid viable without giving them current content raid gear. Same purpose nowadays can be achieved by running heroics and LFR.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby jere » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:10 am

Except that the Badge of Justice system was deterministic while heroics and even more so LFR are random. When gearing new people fast, you want as deterministic of a system as you can to speed up the process.

Mind you I am not arguing for or against the system. I tend to do rep grinds, dailies, heroics, LFR, and raiding anyways, so any system works for me.

My only major complaints with the system as is are:
1. Golden Lotus really needs to be revamped, especially the tie to Shadow Pan and AC.
2. At this current time, it makes no sense to say heroics/rep grinds are separate paths when the currency for the some of the rep grind rewards also come from heroics and don't have any other really viable options to spend aside from rep based items. This will change in 5.1 obviously.

I think if there were other things you could spend valor on, then it would be easier to say they are separate paths of progression.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby twinkfist » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:39 am

to be honest...i sort of wish they would bring in dailies for items that you can not get anymore...or specific dailies to your class or whatever.

as a blacksmith...i'm unable to be able to make Stormherald or Bloodmoon anymore (made all three at the end of BC...if i knew then what i know now...yeah, i wouldn't have vendored them).

Give me dailies to get stuff to transmog that doesn't have a purpose...as odd as it sounds...i wouldn't mind it because it's something that's vanity.

but to get the 489 shoulders...i never want to kill another sprite that's stealing beer or kill another bird for their feathers.

i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:53 am

twinkfist wrote:but to get the 489 shoulders...i never want to kill another sprite that's stealing beer or kill another bird for their feathers.

i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.


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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:21 pm

Darielle wrote:
Right, they did add stuff when Sunwell came out, I forgot about that. But still then the gear was T6 equivalent, where the current endgame was a whole tier ahead. The point I was trying to make is that the original incarnation of badge gear simply wasn't for cutting edge raiders to fill in their gaps, it was for people to play catchup.

And yes, in Wrath they changed it to be endgame equivalent. I was taking issue with the claim that the "original purpose" was to fill in gaps for raiders.


Sort of. The point in the Sunwell patch was to catch up on any slots that you might be missing from BT or there was an itemisation hole. While Wrath initially had Valor offer 213 which was same as Naxx-25, that soon was not actually endgame-equivalent when Heroics (or Hard Modes in Ulduar) actually became a thing. Even at release, Sarth-3D and Maly offered better items (Naxx wasn't really "cutting edge endgame").


Yeah but heroic mode is like endgame+. Point is that in Wrath it offered gear of the same item level that was obtainable in the latest dungeon.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:27 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Yeah but heroic mode is like endgame+. Point is that in Wrath it offered gear of the same item level that was obtainable in the latest dungeon.


Wasn't launch wrath 10 man tokens in heroics and 10 man raids can only buy 10 man gear. 25 man tokens only from 25 man raids to buy 25 man level gear. Then when Ulduar was released old 25 man tokens became the 10 man tokens. Trial of the Crusader was a huge fustercluck with everyone having to go through the lower raid gear first. ICC was pretty clear cut and the first time I really remember the daily heroic granting a currency greater than what you could get from the heroic itself.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Nooska » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Reading through th ethread I can agree with a lot of points on both sides, only really one thing that annoys me.

"Needing valor gear"...

We don't need valor gear to raid (I mean, if we needed gear of the ivl that drop sin an instance, whay do we need drops from the instance anyway?).

We want valor gear.

There is a mile of difference between those when discussion the pros and cons of the system.

But yeah, I also wanted the gear, and therefor eI did all teh rep grinds - no way am I doing them on my alts till 4.1 (well, my BS DK might go for the recipies, but without having looked up thats klaxxi which should be almost there anyway).

Thing is, I don't actually need any of the valor gear (well I could switch up my shoulders and my belt), because everything else was overtaken by reality - and at this point I don't think I will buy the shoulders at all, I will probably buy the belt (so I don't feel like I'm wasting ggold when I use the belt buckle), but apart from that I don't think I'll spend more valor before 5.1, even though I have 2 476 pieces (crafted).

So, when we talk about it, lets remember that we WANT VP gear, we don't NEED it (just ask Treck, I would guess).
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:02 am

Wasn't launch wrath 10 man tokens in heroics and 10 man raids can only buy 10 man gear. 25 man tokens only from 25 man raids to buy 25 man level gear. Then when Ulduar was released old 25 man tokens became the 10 man tokens. Trial of the Crusader was a huge fustercluck with everyone having to go through the lower raid gear first. ICC was pretty clear cut and the first time I really remember the daily heroic granting a currency greater than what you could get from the heroic itself.


At all tiers, you could get Valor/Conquest/Triumph/Frost from 5-mans, just gated at 2 per day. It may have been either the ToC or the ICC patch where they put in the Raid Weekly quest, which also awarded highest token from killing a boss on any mode.

We don't need valor gear to raid (I mean, if we needed gear of the ivl that drop sin an instance, whay do we need drops from the instance anyway?).

We want valor gear.


To be fair, you're implying that people are only concerned with using Valor gear to raid normal mode, which isn't necessarily true.
We also play in a world where some people "need" 35% nerfs to raid Normal anyway, so ... the "need" logic doesn't really work.

Yeah but heroic mode is like endgame+


~

That's even more debatable since ICC/Cataclysm and the raid nerf system really took hold.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:03 am

Darielle wrote:
Wasn't launch wrath 10 man tokens in heroics and 10 man raids can only buy 10 man gear. 25 man tokens only from 25 man raids to buy 25 man level gear. Then when Ulduar was released old 25 man tokens became the 10 man tokens. Trial of the Crusader was a huge fustercluck with everyone having to go through the lower raid gear first. ICC was pretty clear cut and the first time I really remember the daily heroic granting a currency greater than what you could get from the heroic itself.


At all tiers, you could get Valor/Conquest/Triumph/Frost from 5-mans, just gated at 2 per day. It may have been either the ToC or the ICC patch where they put in the Raid Weekly quest, which also awarded highest token from killing a boss on any mode.

Flex was right. During Naxx the only way to get Valor was to raid 25 man - everything else gave Justice. When Ulduar launched, the daily heroic and 10 man Ulduar rewarded Valor (with no new gear to buy) and only way to get Conquest was in 25 man Ulduar. I believe it was at some point during Ulduar that they patched things and made everything reward Conquest, then they kept that model for the rest of the expac with Triumph and Frost.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:17 am

Flex was right. During Naxx the only way to get Valor was to raid 25 man - everything else gave Justice. When Ulduar launched, the daily heroic and 10 man Ulduar rewarded Valor (with no new gear to buy) and only way to get Conquest was in 25 man Ulduar. I believe it was at some point during Ulduar that they patched things and made everything reward Conquest, then they kept that model for the rest of the expac with Triumph and Frost.


ToC was when they made everything that didn't already award Conquest award Conquest.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:30 pm

RE: "original purpose", I concede. I didn't play then, I was just parroting something I swore I read one of the CM/Dev-types write at some point. But I may have mis-remembered.

But I'll still hold onto the idea that the current VP & Elder (whatever they are called) token system which provides a reward for activity A which requires one to participate in separate activity B is fundamentally flawed, unless the desire was to use this as a mechanism to encourage cross-style play and assume that the rewards within a single activity are sufficient. But I am not sure that is more than a one-way street. I somehow doubt that a significant number of people are raiding *just* so they can use elder tokens to get upgrades (I imagine the mere presence of LFR did more than the tokens). But I imagine the number of people who are doing dailies *just* to have a way to spend valor to get upgrades is not insignificant. For those who enjoy and do both: I doubt it much matters one way or the other. For everyone else: having another avenue to use those rewards could certainly open up some nice options.

I've tried not to use the word 'forced', because that really seems to mean 'encouragement I don't like or don't agree with' in most of these discussions.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sagara » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:50 am

Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:28 am

Sagara wrote:Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.


Yeah, I think in order to make people who would be questing primarily not feel like they couldn't do much they also placed more of the onus for managing your play time on the player. Interestingly though, I'd have thought the Dev's would have figured that'd lead to more early burn out on content (therefore actually shortening the playability over when we had daily caps).

Another alternative could have been to have a graded rep/reward scale like LFD: the first faction whose dailies you complete (or some such thing) a day give you 1.5-2x more rep and/or VP, then maybe it gives you more VP and/or gold once you hit exalted. There I think the trouble would be communicating that: with LFD it's easy since it can be put right there in the interface. With dailies, I think they'd have to have introduced some sort of additional buff or UI/quest text element.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Zalaria » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:56 am

benebarba wrote:Yeah, I think in order to make people who would be questing primarily not feel like they couldn't do much they also placed more of the onus for managing your play time on the player. Interestingly though, I'd have thought the Dev's would have figured that'd lead to more early burn out on content (therefore actually shortening the playability over when we had daily caps).


This is exactly why they locked Shado-Pan and August Celestials behind Golden Lotus.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:46 pm

I don't equate extending time played with extending the playability of the content. Not when the daily grind is just the same few quests over and over ad nauseum. I am less likely to explore my alts, and less likely to complete the zone quests, because my available play time is taken up with repetitive grinding of reputation on my main.

A more compelling execution of dailies would have been to have the dailies actually progress you through an area. Most areas have a number of quests that lead you through exploring the area. Imagine if you joined the pandaren taking back an entire area from the evil whatevers, but you were slowed by being part of the advancing army. After X number of quests, the expedition leader would say "that's all for today; let's camp here" and you can quest no further that day. And imagine part of those quests were repetitive - gathering food or water for the troops, helping to repair the infrastructure of the area - such that you had maybe 3 new quests that advanced the expedition along with your busy work of keeping the expedition moving.

30 days of such content would be 90 total new quests in the zone, with another 20 or so dailies that get repeated. It would give you the feeling of actually getting somewhere as you fight your way through the zone. It could be phased such that every day the area you passed becomes greener and more pleasant, to give you the feeling you are really taking back the land.

That would be content worth doing, ticking both the solo-questing and "we don't want you to get your rep too quickly" boxes.
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