Valor reward discussion

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:44 pm

no, cause if you have shite RNG luck, you still need the items hidden behind the rep to upgrade in the first place
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 pm

bldavis wrote:no, cause if you have shite RNG luck, you still need the items hidden behind the rep to upgrade in the first place


Also - I haven't seen/read how the upgrades would work: is it a 'neutral' vendor like the ethereals? Or will it too be behind some sort of rep-gate (sounds like an awesome name for a scandal, IMO)?
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:So given that 5.1 adds VP upgrades to gear you get via raiding, shouldn't that remove the problem of "being forced" to grind rep?


Assuming that you have ilvl 489+ gear, yep. Remember that gear can only be upgraded 8 lvls, so those 463 cloth dps legs that you might be stuck with (who? me?) can only be upgraded to ilvl 471. You can't keep upgrading them to a 509 with enough valor.

So you still need rep if you want to fill slots that aren't dropping for you.

benebarba wrote:Also - I haven't seen/read how the upgrades would work: is it a 'neutral' vendor like the ethereals? Or will it too be behind some sort of rep-gate (sounds like an awesome name for a scandal, IMO)?


The vendor is indeed an Ethereal, located with the Void, Tmog, and Reforge guys.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:16 pm

bldavis wrote:no, cause if you have shite RNG luck, you still need the items hidden behind the rep to upgrade in the first place

Also if you are in a casual guild you're not clearing each week. We struggle with DPS checks and coordination things, and are finding some of the fights this tier to be a bit of a challenge. I don't mind a challenge for a change, but being casual many of my raid don't log in except to raid, which means they are not improving their gear, which makes DPS checks more difficult which means roadblocks, which means we don't clear, so they don't get gear... It's a vicious cycle. One of our mages is ilvl 464 still.

The VP rewards are so sequestered behind quest walls that they're just not realistic for people who work and have a family. That may not be who the game is marketed to, but there are a lot of us out there, including my entire guild. I don't know anyone who doesn't either have a job or family or both to deal with.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Teranoid » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:23 pm

Sabindeus wrote:So given that 5.1 adds VP upgrades to gear you get via raiding, shouldn't that remove the problem of "being forced" to grind rep?


It still doesn't change the fact that gear is still better and thus people are still going to feel "forced" to do it.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:58 pm

bldavis wrote:to go with my previous post, i am EXALTED with hydroxian waterlords....


<hipster> /yawn, that's so 2005</hipster>

I think the big error with reps was the epic items, period.
That said, I see why they did it. For the casual player, that item is something to look forward to. It's a great reward for a lot of effort spread out over weeks. The problem is that it's not just attractive to casual players. And that's really the sticking point - how do you provide a gear reward that's attractive enough to casual players but not attractive to raiders?

There does need to be an incentive for doing dailies, but epic items that give you a significant advantage in early raid progression are important enough to make raiders feel pressured to do them, even if they don't like dailies. And it's hard to get around that limitation.

I don't see any problem with there being good rewards for reputation. There are plenty of good cosmetic rewards, for example. And I think having items available at honored works pretty well. Revered is still a bit steep without quest support - for example, Klaxxi stuff at revered is fine because you're halfway there just by finishing Dread Wastes, but needing revered with GL or AC or SP is pretty harsh.

Patterns, though, make perfect sense as gated content. I wish more of the end-game level patterns were locked behind reptuation walls rather than raid drops, to be honest. That would give every crafter an incentive to do dailies, but raiders sitting on a pile of cash could just buy the stuff they need and not worry about the reps.

Another thought: what if instead of getting access to the VP item upon getting exalted with the reputation, you got access to the pattern for that item and a free copy of it? For example, you reach exalted with Shado-Pan, and you get an epic necklace, but if you're a JC you also get a pattern to create a BoE copy of that necklace.

The materials cost could be something moderately expensive, such that it would cost a decent bit to get one crafted early on in the tier, which makes the rep grind valuable. But it also makes it so that a raider could bypass the rep grind by paying someone who has done the rep grind. Alternatively, it could require a vendor-bought material that costs - you guessed it - valor points ("Orb of Valorness").

This seems to cover the best of both worlds - casual players get their reward (and on top of it, a new income stream!), while also making the rep grind truly optional for raiders. Rather grind dungeons for your VP than do dailies? No problem, grind your dungeons and use the VP to buy the materials you need to make the items you want.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:30 pm

halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:So given that 5.1 adds VP upgrades to gear you get via raiding, shouldn't that remove the problem of "being forced" to grind rep?


Assuming that you have ilvl 489+ gear, yep. Remember that gear can only be upgraded 8 lvls, so those 463 cloth dps legs that you might be stuck with (who? me?) can only be upgraded to ilvl 471. You can't keep upgrading them to a 509 with enough valor.

So you still need rep if you want to fill slots that aren't dropping for you.


But you can still spend your accumulated VP on upgrading the slots that DO drop for you. Not to mention that you can spend it on LFR drops. So the problem is not "what do I do with all this VP??" but "there's gear over there and I wants it!"
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:33 pm

I still havent seen proof why it's bad to have the valor gear available without needing rep.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:33 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I still havent seen proof why it's bad to have the valor gear available without needing rep.

i dont mind needing rep, but the rep to unlock rep and those rep unlock gear is getting a bit silly

so i have to do a week or so of dailies, just to unlock more dailies...so i can do them for 2 more weeks just to get the item i need AVAILABLE for me
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:00 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
halabar wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:So given that 5.1 adds VP upgrades to gear you get via raiding, shouldn't that remove the problem of "being forced" to grind rep?


Assuming that you have ilvl 489+ gear, yep. Remember that gear can only be upgraded 8 lvls, so those 463 cloth dps legs that you might be stuck with (who? me?) can only be upgraded to ilvl 471. You can't keep upgrading them to a 509 with enough valor.

So you still need rep if you want to fill slots that aren't dropping for you.


But you can still spend your accumulated VP on upgrading the slots that DO drop for you. Not to mention that you can spend it on LFR drops. So the problem is not "what do I do with all this VP??" but "there's gear over there and I wants it!"


Well, along that note, VP would be best spent upgrading the best gear you have, especially if it's Heroic gear, as that won't likely be replaced for 3-4 months at least (until the next raid tier). Got a 509 item from Sha? Upgrade that first. Do NOT upgrade those crappy 463 legs that your spriest is wearing.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:04 pm

theckhd wrote:And that's really the sticking point - how do you provide a gear reward that's attractive enough to casual players but not attractive to raiders?


You don't need to make it unattractive to raiders, you need to make it less of a grind. How?

1) Move more of the gear from rep to drops
2) Increase the # of bonus rolls per week
3) Do more with patterns as you suggest, and also make the mats more accessible. (trade SoH for the Blood Spirits, for example).
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:28 pm

Except that basically misses the point. The reward is there explicitly to be a reward for the grind, primarily for casual players. This is part of their "endgame" progression beyond mindlessly running heroics. If you remove those rewards, or remove the rep gating for them, you've broken down that system. Yes, it makes it easier for raiders, but it also completely devalues the rep grind for the intended audience (i.e. not raiders).

As much as I dislike having to grind out the reps myself, I see why the designers built it this way. The question is not "how to make it less of a grind" at all, because the grind is the point. The question is how to keep the grind value for part of the player base, but make those same items less of a grind for the people it's ostensibly not designed for.

Or, more to the point, how to make out-of-raid activities less time consuming for raiders, who already have a significant time investment in the game so as it is. It's not a problem to have stuff to do outside of raids, but there's far more of it than ever before, which is putting a heavier strain on people who consider themselves serious raiders, and is leading to increased burnout. That's a problem for that community, and while I don't think that nerfing or destroying the experience for the other 90% of the player base is the answer, I do think it's a situation worth looking at carefully.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:42 pm

theckhd wrote:Except that basically misses the point. The reward is there explicitly to be a reward for the grind, primarily for casual players. This is part of their "endgame" progression beyond mindlessly running heroics. If you remove those rewards, or remove the rep gating for them, you've broken down that system. Yes, it makes it easier for raiders, but it also completely devalues the rep grind for the intended audience (i.e. not raiders).


But what else is of real value to non-raiders? Pets? Patterns? Mounts? There are other things that can be added there that are not part of the raid progression path, so no-raiders still have rewards, and raiders don't have to grind. I think there's common ground there.

That said, I'll repeat my main complaint. Dailies, in that there's a daily gating. Make it weekly caps, and I'd be fine with the current system. I just want to be able to do my 7 hours of rep grinding in two days instead of forcing it to be spread over 7 days.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:00 pm

How bout an alternate way to earn the reputation with the factions but with a weekly or daily cap on how much rep you can earn thru this method that is equal or lesser to the total rep you can gain thru the dailies.

That way both raiders and non-raiders get their cake

And I see no downside to this.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Klaudandus wrote:How bout an alternate way to earn the reputation with the factions but with a weekly or daily cap on how much rep you can earn thru this method that is equal or lesser to the total rep you can gain thru the dailies.

That way both raiders and non-raiders get their cake

And I see no downside to this.

If you impose a daily cap you might as well just do the damn dailies.

I work 5 days a week and make dinner for my family, so I don't get to play until 8:00 pm or so at which point I am tired from a full-on day. I raid a couple nights a week as well. I don't have time or inclination to do dailies after raid, and often on non-raid work days either.

Give me something I can max out on my weekend, or when I decide to spend some time on it.

And then, most importantly, allow my main to "introduce" my alts, so that they might start with honored or even revered reputation instead of having to do it all over again.

Seriously, let's say Superman shows up at your door IRL, and introduces you to his best friend - would you:

A: Be neutral to him. Could be a villain for all you know.
B: Honour him and make a fancy meal, treat him with lots of respect.
C: Revere him - best friends with the Man of Steel? This dude must be something special!

I'm gonna guess it's probably not going to be A.
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