Valor reward discussion

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:33 am

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote:I'll try and work in a parallel here. They changed the 7 weekly dungeon Valor system to a standart per dungeon reward + a daily bonus for the first dungeon.

This is something I can get: everyone CAN cap their weekly Valor via dungeons, but if you're a good little player, and log EVERY day, you have it a LOT easier.


Fixed, and this is the problem. The caps aren't the problem, the rep isn't the main problem. The problem is that they require you to do it EVERY day in order to stay competitive. Excuse me for having a job, wife, and days that I simply can't grind dailies.

If they kept the rep and caps, but allowed you to blast through it in 2-3 days instead of requiring daily logins, it would be a lot better.


I play 5h a day, 7 days a week. more than enough to cap valorpoints, maybe on 2 toons even.
but I don't.
It doesn't hinder me in playing the game the way I like and it doesn't hinder my raidgroups performance (we just suck as a group, it's not gearrelated :P).
The only one forcing me to do dailies is me, coz I'm a lootwhoring, ilvlhungry bastard like that.
The moment I realised that, I was a lot less stressed about the whole dailies thing.

@shoju: I totally agree with you that it seems odd/not fair to be forced to do dailies to be able to spend your dungeonreward (valorpoints). Then again, you are also "forced" to raid to be able to spend your lucky coins.
But like I said before, I can't think of another way to get people to be out there unless there is big reward to be gained.
both losing the rep-requirement and let you gain rep in dungeons at whatever rate will reduce the amount of players outside of major hubs.
It's not a pretty solution, but with the current epicgreedy WoW population (yes, I'm comparing all of you to me), but I can see the reasoning behind it.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:37 am

maybe a mod can move this whole discussion to an appropriate thread? discussion doesn't seem to want to die. :P
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:54 am

JoeBravo wrote:@shoju: I totally agree with you that it seems odd/not fair to be forced to do dailies to be able to spend your dungeonreward (valorpoints). Then again, you are also "forced" to raid to be able to spend your lucky coins.
But like I said before, I can't think of another way to get people to be out there unless there is big reward to be gained.
both losing the rep-requirement and let you gain rep in dungeons at whatever rate will reduce the amount of players outside of major hubs.
It's not a pretty solution, but with the current epicgreedy WoW population (yes, I'm comparing all of you to me), but I can see the reasoning behind it.


The coins are the extra roll thing right? Well, allow them to have another use, and problem solved. Maybe a vendor that you can sell the coin to for Rep?
If the reward is good enough, the content will stand on it's own.

I'm not saying that they need to do both (remove rep and allow rep in dungeons). But they need to choose. Are they going to reward dungeoning and raiding with rep? Or are they going to reward dailies with something different?

I see the reason behind it. I just don't agree that it's a good reason. I wont lie, it is part of (not all, but part of) why I wouldn't consider coming back to play the game.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:07 am

forced to raid?
they are a perk to add to raiding, which isnt the issue

i agree with shoju, if you gave me a sweet armor set or nice looking gun to tmog into, i would do dailies til the emerald dream expansion to get them
but locking gear i need to have my character at his best for our raid teams success is different
yes, there will be people who complain they dont have anything to do cause they dont care about the toys/tmogging
there is ALWAYS someone to complain.

the main issue is there is a ton of ways to get valor, but only one way to spend it beyond upgrading gear...when 5.1 comes out

i agree, this needs its own thread now
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:17 am

JoeBravo wrote:maybe a mod can move this whole discussion to an appropriate thread? discussion doesn't seem to want to die. :P

bldavis wrote:i agree, this needs its own thread now

Done, that was harder than I thought!

Have a nice figh...er...discussion :mrgreen:
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:31 am

ty worldie, now we can get back to da lawlz and facepalms in amusements
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby econ21 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:58 am

It just struck me today - the blindingly obvious solution to the "problem" of dailies in MoP that the chap with many L90 alts complained about is to make reputation BOA. (Either that or just delink VP gear from reputation in 5.2.)

I don't mind the reputation grind on my main, largely because I'm done with it now. It wasn't something I greatly enjoyed, but it was fairly new content - there was a good amount of variety in the dailies with relatively few slow kill X boar type quests and it was certainly something to do when I am not raiding (which sadly atm is always). I hated the GL dailies, but even they got better as I got gear and went ret.

However, the idea of doing those grinds again on my alts does not bare thinking about. I may get GL honored or whatever for the LW and tailoring recipes. But that will be it.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:04 am

Man, am I gonna have to post my rant again?


I think I can summarize it as follows:
Rewarding multiple kinds of content with a currency (VP, roll tokens) you can only practically spend by doing a specific, and mutually exclusive (you can't do dailies and be downing a raid boss at the same time...), kind of content is not compelling game design from my perspective. Further, solutions which only benefit players (i.e. get exalted via current system, get rep buff on other toons) with multiple level-capped characters misses the point IMO.

For the roll tokens: let them either be a rep turn-in and be able to be used in 5-mans. That way the cap may also continue to make sense. Right now, if you don't raid - you really cease to care about these things.

For rep/VP: a few ideas:
1) rep grind leads to lower-VP cost items vs a vendor for the same item.
2) rep grind grants a tabard to grant rep in 5-mans and raids. Possibly a boost to dailies too. Can be behind a friendly/honored level rep-wall to help justify content and provide some gating/extension of play
3) rep gear not being VP purchase (say gold) and VP gear back on separate vendors (cata model - or even have the gear be the same) but have VP awarded for dailies as well (and still usable for upgrading items, which may be gated).

Edited to add: the 'grinds' I didn't see as grinds: tillers (yay farm!) and OOCS (woot! mount and some fun and quick dailies). The others though: ugh.
Last edited by benebarba on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:05 am

What was my drive to farm stuff post DS Patch?

Tmogging. Ask any Lurker you see where Shoju when he was on: The answer? Running Heroics with Guildies, Raiding, or Running old content for Rep (for tmogging items) or for the gear itself.

If you can appeal to people through quality content, and quality rewards, you don't need to bottleneck everyone into the rep grinds to get people into them.

Achievements, Reps (as an extension of achievements), Mounts, Pets, and Mog gear will push a good portion of people towards the content.
Add in Dailies that aren't boring and repetative, and you will get casual people to do them.
Spice them up with the Tillers, Anglers, and Cooking, and you can get more people involved.
Toss in things that are REALLY cool, but not "Necessary" and you can filter even more people in who want to get that super cool thing that you really want to have, but don't need to raid, and you can filter more people in, doing them at a casual pace to get that "Fun thing" (Costumes, weird trinkets, etc...)

There are plenty of ways to filter people into the content without bottlenecking their raid upgrades.

Are you going to get as many people doing the content with "Fun things" as you do with "Bottlenecking"? probably not, but the people who do participate will have an overall higher level of satisfaction, because they don't feel like they are being forced to play content that they don't want to do, because you want them to.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:25 am

to go with my previous post, i am EXALTED with hydroxian waterlords....
for those that dont know it is the rep from molten core
i did that grind of about 4-5 months of clearing it each week just for my warriors T1
when i finally got the last piece, i was about 3 weeks from exalted so i finished it up

i am going to go back in there on my ally dk just to get dark iron to make her sulfuran hammer
all for tmog purposes...

as an example of ways to get rep without dailies, i point to Tillers and OotCS
50 rep per farm harvest at 90, and 500 per egg for OotCS
give us something like that for others and i would be happy
collecting amber from perma-tree taps in dread wastes with klaxxi for example

blizz has said before that LFR is for those that are casual PVE'ers
though i would also like having the option to use tokens for rep
its either that, or just stockpile them for the next tier once you are fully geared
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:10 pm

I'll say again, if they hadn't made the Valor gear a higher ilevel than every other source of gear except raiding, this would not be anywhere near as big an issue. If Valor gear was 476, people would be much more comfortable not grinding it all out as soon as possible. It would actually feel like an optional way to fill out weak slots, and not a straight-up additional source of raid-level gear. (And it'd make all the LFR gear from the gated raids more worthwhile to non-raiders, instead of lower ilevel than the rep stuff that's been available for months.)
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:29 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:I'll say again, if they hadn't made the Valor gear a higher ilevel than every other source of gear except raiding, this would not be anywhere near as big an issue. If Valor gear was 476, people would be much more comfortable not grinding it all out as soon as possible. It would actually feel like an optional way to fill out weak slots, and not a straight-up additional source of raid-level gear. (And it'd make all the LFR gear from the gated raids more worthwhile to non-raiders, instead of lower ilevel than the rep stuff that's been available for months.)



I wonder if the main rationale was to have an ilvl that would still be attractive to raiders after they'd started raiding (i.e. keeping the idea that badge gear is a raiding 'concession prize'). The fact that it was raid-level would mean that it would be desirable by everyone, for a long period (i.e. the entire tier), as opposed to say JP gear which seems to have fallen out depending on how many 5-mans you do.

Honestly, I can't help but think that the whole daily thing this time around was something that someone either didn't think through enough use-cases for, or they did and didn't give a crap so long as the money came in.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:00 pm

JoeBravo wrote:I play 5h a day, 7 days a week. more than enough to cap valorpoints, maybe on 2 toons even. but I don't.
It doesn't hinder me in playing the game the way I like and it doesn't hinder my raidgroups performance (we just suck as a group, it's not gearrelated :P).
The only one forcing me to do dailies is me, coz I'm a lootwhoring, ilvlhungry bastard like that.
The moment I realised that, I was a lot less stressed about the whole dailies thing.


Well, my RL is hammering on people to get gemmed, valored, etc when we are hitting the enrage on Elgalon, and don't quite have the dps to push the phases earlier. Skill would help, but better gear helps too.

But it's hard to find more that one weeknight to do dailies (2 raid nights) so on a normal workweek I might be able to do the dailies 3 days out of 7. That puts a major cramp in trying to get the rep.

All they really need to do is change the dungeons back to 7/week, and allow you to stack up the dailies more when you do have time to run them.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:16 pm

The economy here in New Zealand has been picking up, and with it my workload has gone up. I'm working long days and don't have a lot of time in the evenings to play.

I log onto my main, but the thought of doing the same dumbass goddamn dailies for the nth week in a row just makes me bored of the whole thing. I would level an alt, but then I feel guilty about not doing the dailies on my main. I also consider that when my alt is max level, I'll be doing thee same dumbass goddamn dailies on my alt.

I honestly can't be bothered. Most times I make my scroll, learn a new JC pattern, and just hang out because it's all just too boring to deal with.

Making a repetitive and boring daily quest regime the only way to earn faction rep doesn't make the game any harder, or more interesting, or more challenging. All it does is make the game more repetitive and boring.

Valor gear was great when it allowed alts to catch up to raid tier in some slots so that you could swap your main if you didn't like what the class had become, or have an alternative to fill a role your raid might be lacking. But when valor rewards are barred except after interminable dailies, they fail to serve that purpose. It takes far too long to grind them up to gear up an alt in a reasonable period of time.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:39 pm

So given that 5.1 adds VP upgrades to gear you get via raiding, shouldn't that remove the problem of "being forced" to grind rep?
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