Valor reward discussion

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Valor reward discussion

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:30 am

Worldie wrote:You telling me you plan on doing rep farms on all your alts? I already swore I will never do a daily again on my second char!


did the repgrind for the LW patterns and the windserpents on my hunter (1st alt), casually doing the anglers ones on it too.
Will have to do several of them on at least some my alliance toons aswell.
But waiting for 5.1 to do any rep I don't immediately need.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:41 am

The problem is not the dailies per se -- is the fact that the dailies are the only source of reputation

All the complaints would go away imo if
- The valor gear would not require reputation
or
- There was another way to acquire reputation

You could create an alternate system and have a cap for the week -- which would be the max reputation you can earn with that faction if you were to do all the dailies, every single day, for that week.

There, problem solved!
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:50 am

Klaudandus wrote:The problem is not the dailies per se -- is the fact that the dailies are the only source of reputation

All the complaints would go away imo if
- The valor gear would not require reputation
or
- There was another way to acquire reputation

You could create an alternate system and have a cap for the week -- which would be the max reputation you can earn with that faction if you were to do all the dailies, every single day, for that week.

There, problem solved!


see my previous post: you would lose the requirement to be out in the world and just do dungeons/raids instead, which is exactly what blizzard is trying to avoid.
current solution isn't the most elegant one and doesn't work for everybody, but I for one can't think of a better one.

Worldie wrote:Can i hire you to farm reps for me?

no.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:58 am

JoeBravo wrote:see my previous post: you would lose the requirement to be out in the world and just do dungeons/raids instead, which is exactly what blizzard is trying to avoid.
current solution isn't the most elegant one and doesn't work for everybody, but I for one can't think of a better one.


It should be a personal choice -- besides, the dailies would be the only way to get those elder charm thingies.

At this stage, Blizzard should stop calling it optional when there's no option, it's basically a Hobson's choice instead.

So much for their talk about playing the game your way.


Tillers, Anglers and Cloud Serpents are truly optional -- I liked the Tillers, didnt touch Anglers nor Cloud Serpent and I'm no worse for that choice. Being Revered with them does not affect how powerful my character can be.

However, if I was not Revered with Shado Pan, I'd not be able to buy the epic helmet I need though -- that is not truly optional.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:12 am

Klaudandus wrote:
JoeBravo wrote:see my previous post: you would lose the requirement to be out in the world and just do dungeons/raids instead, which is exactly what blizzard is trying to avoid.
current solution isn't the most elegant one and doesn't work for everybody, but I for one can't think of a better one.


It should be a personal choice -- besides, the dailies would be the only way to get those elder charm thingies.

At this stage, Blizzard should stop calling it optional when there's no option, it's basically a Hobson's choice instead.

So much for their talk about playing the game your way.


not doing dailies is still a choice. You just choose to miss out on more powerfull rewards than before.
The only solutions I'm reading aren't doing what blizzard is trying to achieve: keep the world alive by having players there instead of in a major city.
There is no need to do dailies: you can still gear up with dungeons, LFR, craftables and a small selection of valorgear (and later the upgrade option). By doing dailies you just add (the rest of) the valorgear.
So imo nobody forces you to do dailies, e.g. you can perfectly be raiding without ever touching them (like at least a third of my raidteam does).

Like I said: I don't really like doing dailies either, but I see the reasoning behind it and as long as I can't offer a solution that achieves thesame goal, I'll bear with their one.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:14 am

Klaudandus wrote:
JoeBravo wrote:see my previous post: you would lose the requirement to be out in the world and just do dungeons/raids instead, which is exactly what blizzard is trying to avoid.
current solution isn't the most elegant one and doesn't work for everybody, but I for one can't think of a better one.


It should be a personal choice -- besides, the dailies would be the only way to get those elder charm thingies.

At this stage, Blizzard should stop calling it optional when there's no option, it's basically a Hobson's choice instead.

So much for their talk about playing the game your way.


Tillers, Anglers and Cloud Serpents are truly optional -- I liked the Tillers, didnt touch Anglers nor Cloud Serpent and I'm no worse for that choice. Being Revered with them does not affect how powerful my character can be.

However, if I was not Revered with Shado Pan, I'd not be able to buy the epic helmet I need though -- that is not truly optional.


you can get a helmet in LFR, pvp and normal/heroic raids too. so you have options.
Your. own. choice.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:29 am

Isn't the ilevel lower in LFR?
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:38 am

Nikachelle wrote:Isn't the ilevel lower in LFR?


yes, but point was it's a gearing option beside the valor one. didn't say it didn't have a drawback. as getting an heroic raiddrop is most likely an upgrade.

amusement: playing the devil's advocate here. :mrgreen:
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:46 am

I'll try and work in a parallel here. They changed the 7 weekly dungeon Valor system to a standart per dungeon reward + a daily bonus for the first dungeon.

This is something I can get: everyone CAN cap their weekly Valor via dungeons, but if you're a good little player, and log every day, you have it a bit easier.

Meanwhile, if you want to use that Valor, you are basically required to get reputation. Problem is, you have one single way to win it, and you cannot play around it.

This is a situation where I'd be okay with dailies granting the best reputation gains, but other, lesser avenues being available, like, say, a weekly token from dungeons that allows you to gain X rep with a specific faction of your choice.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:16 am

Sagara wrote:I'll try and work in a parallel here. They changed the 7 weekly dungeon Valor system to a standart per dungeon reward + a daily bonus for the first dungeon.

This is something I can get: everyone CAN cap their weekly Valor via dungeons, but if you're a good little player, and log every day, you have it a bit easier.

Meanwhile, if you want to use that Valor, you are basically required to get reputation. Problem is, you have one single way to win it, and you cannot play around it.

This is a situation where I'd be okay with dailies granting the best reputation gains, but other, lesser avenues being available, like, say, a weekly token from dungeons that allows you to gain X rep with a specific faction of your choice.


still: no need to be out in the world then.
really, try to think of a solution where you would not do dailies but would be out there. I can't think of one, and apparantly, neither could Blizzard.

They just made the rewards for dailies so very high you feel forced to do them. In the end you aren't required to do then to play the game the way you want (you can raid/pvp without them), but your options/chances for gear gets reduced.
not sure if 'significantly' is a proper addition to that sentence, but it does feel like it.
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Valor reward discussion

Postby Amirya » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:48 am

They may not "require" you to do them, but most people may feel like they are being penalized (by friends, guild, pugs) if they don't.

"I don't want to carry you!"

Also, the problem with Stormwind/Orgrimmar being central cluster-hubs is because maybe that's where fuckall is. Banks, transmogrifiers, auction houses, profession trainers, class trainers, mount/flight masters, mounts, training dummies, etc. I would be perfectly happy to not be in Stormwind or a linked city if they offered those items elsewhere.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Nooska » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:53 am

I'll echo the last part - I used to chill out in TB until I was "forced" to chill out elsewhere.
Il ike pandaria in that I have an alternate central location to be in - halfhill.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:57 am

Sagara wrote:I'll try and work in a parallel here. They changed the 7 weekly dungeon Valor system to a standart per dungeon reward + a daily bonus for the first dungeon.

This is something I can get: everyone CAN cap their weekly Valor via dungeons, but if you're a good little player, and log EVERY day, you have it a LOT easier.


Fixed, and this is the problem. The caps aren't the problem, the rep isn't the main problem. The problem is that they require you to do it EVERY day in order to stay competitive. Excuse me for having a job, wife, and days that I simply can't grind dailies.

If they kept the rep and caps, but allowed you to blast through it in 2-3 days instead of requiring daily logins, it would be a lot better.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:03 am

they do have everything but mount vendors and AHs (unless you are an engi) at the shrines

i am fine with them saying you need rep to get gear, but with dailies being the only way to get rep is a bit bs
im not saying ditch the whole idea of valor gear this time, i just want another way to gain rep
tabards make it so we have cata all over again, but what if we had a BoP item looted off mobs in that factions area (ie virmen for tillers, mantids for klaxxi, sha-esque mobs for AC/SP, mogu for GL) that would HELP boost rep

you could farm them if you wanted, but might as well just gather them as you do dailies to speed up that rep grind (think eggs for Cloud Serpents, but mob drops)

OR

a tabard that doesnt GRANT rep, but BOOSTS rep
make it BoA, and requires revered to buy, maybe exalted, and doubles rep....oh wait they are already doing this....



the feeling that we are required to do dailies isnt to do with them being required to raid, but for anyone that cares about raiding and progression will be doing dailies to get rep, behind which the best gear is locked
better gear = easier and faster progression = not really a choice....

honestly, you have the choice to not play the game either. no one is forcing you to do dailies, or play the game
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:16 am

@JoeBravo.

The problem with your idea about "Being out in the world" and the "choice" that you are espousing, is that you don't have to go out in the world to do dailies so that you can run dungeons, or raids. Period. You shouldn't be forced to go out into the world to do dailies to spend the rewards from running the dungeons, scenarios, and raids.

Even in 5.1 with the gear "upgrade" scheme that they have going, that isn't "really" an avenue of improvement. That's a way to take the "Great piece" that you have already, and make it "even greater"

They have created an artificial bottleneck towards improving your character.

They spoke all through Cataclysm that the Valor Points were to be used to fill in those gaps that were in your gear from raiding. The gear, as it is currently designed is built to do the same thing. It is the same ilvl as the MV Raiding Gear, Thus serving the purpose of "Filling out your gear" when you don't get the drop you need.

But, they have locked it away behind Reputation, which is not needed in anyway shape or form for the rest of the gameplay, the bottleneck occurs, and people get angry.

Let me be clear. I don't care if they want to have super awesome things on Rep vendors. I have seen that there is some mogging gear that you can get on rep vendors (and some pretty badass stuff at that). I don't mind mounts. I don't mind pets. I don't mind even "Fun things" (Think Simian Sphere). I wouldn't even mind if the "Epic Gear" on the rep vendors was of a lesser ilvl than normal raiding gear.

What I do not like, is that they have integrated dailies into the upgrading for PVE Dungeon/Raid Content, and then are standing back and saying "Well, you aren't required to do it!

Sure, you aren't required to do it. I look at it the same way I do the "Plus Card" that a local Grocery Store uses it. I'm not "Required" to have a card to shop in there store. But, if I want discounts on my Groceries that make it "affordable" (read: The same price as other stores), or even get their "Sale Prices", I have to have the Plus Card.

Being Required or Forced to do something, isn't really the same as it being truly optional.

Sort of like, I don't need the Valor Gear to go raiding. But if I want to make sure that I'm spending my Points to make sure that I'm doing what I can to make sure that my character is ready for raiding, I then have to run dungeons, AND do dailies.

The claim that WoW wouldn't survive as just an instance / dungeon /raid game alone is probably true. I am most assuredly in the minority of people who didn't do dailies at 85. I did TB once, hated it, and vowed to NEVER do it again. I did MF dailies to get to the first vendor, and slowly worked through the rest of it on my DK when I was REALLY bored. I'm probably in the minority of people who leveled multiple characters to 85 after the Dungeon Finder was in place Solely through dungeons (Warrior from 15 to 85, Druid from 58 to 85, Priest from 80 to 85, Warlock from 15 to 85 with mining and herbing while in queue). I had multiple characters who just had the cheap therezane enchants because I hated that zone.

You need other content. I wont argue that. But to gate the rewards of one type of content with another type of content just isn't the right idea. There are some wildly popular rep grinds out there. I've done some of them on multiple characters. I did Netherwing Multiple Times. I did Skyguard (albeit not the way it was intended) multiple times.

Blizzard's line in the sands on this issue in MoP is very interesting to me. I for one LOVED the tabard system. I was even ok when the tabards required a certain level of reputation to purchase.

Hell, you even got reputation from TBC Dungeons, and in a few Vanilla Dungeons there were ways to get rep. For them to completely remove the rep from dungeons in MoP was just an artificial way to get people out in the world, and get people doing dailies, and seeing things. If the product is good enough, you don't need to force people to use it. If the rep rewards are good enough, and cool enough, people will truly pick.

Looking at this system from the outside, I feel like it fails to deliver on the promise that they made about Reputation "meaning something" again. This Reputation system doesn't "Mean Something" in the ways that they boasted in the lead up to MoP.

It's an Artificial Bottleneck. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:33 am

halabar wrote:
Sagara wrote:I'll try and work in a parallel here. They changed the 7 weekly dungeon Valor system to a standart per dungeon reward + a daily bonus for the first dungeon.

This is something I can get: everyone CAN cap their weekly Valor via dungeons, but if you're a good little player, and log EVERY day, you have it a LOT easier.


Fixed, and this is the problem. The caps aren't the problem, the rep isn't the main problem. The problem is that they require you to do it EVERY day in order to stay competitive. Excuse me for having a job, wife, and days that I simply can't grind dailies.

If they kept the rep and caps, but allowed you to blast through it in 2-3 days instead of requiring daily logins, it would be a lot better.


I play 5h a day, 7 days a week. more than enough to cap valorpoints, maybe on 2 toons even.
but I don't.
It doesn't hinder me in playing the game the way I like and it doesn't hinder my raidgroups performance (we just suck as a group, it's not gearrelated :P).
The only one forcing me to do dailies is me, coz I'm a lootwhoring, ilvlhungry bastard like that.
The moment I realised that, I was a lot less stressed about the whole dailies thing.

@shoju: I totally agree with you that it seems odd/not fair to be forced to do dailies to be able to spend your dungeonreward (valorpoints). Then again, you are also "forced" to raid to be able to spend your lucky coins.
But like I said before, I can't think of another way to get people to be out there unless there is big reward to be gained.
both losing the rep-requirement and let you gain rep in dungeons at whatever rate will reduce the amount of players outside of major hubs.
It's not a pretty solution, but with the current epicgreedy WoW population (yes, I'm comparing all of you to me), but I can see the reasoning behind it.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby JoeBravo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:37 am

maybe a mod can move this whole discussion to an appropriate thread? discussion doesn't seem to want to die. :P
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:54 am

JoeBravo wrote:@shoju: I totally agree with you that it seems odd/not fair to be forced to do dailies to be able to spend your dungeonreward (valorpoints). Then again, you are also "forced" to raid to be able to spend your lucky coins.
But like I said before, I can't think of another way to get people to be out there unless there is big reward to be gained.
both losing the rep-requirement and let you gain rep in dungeons at whatever rate will reduce the amount of players outside of major hubs.
It's not a pretty solution, but with the current epicgreedy WoW population (yes, I'm comparing all of you to me), but I can see the reasoning behind it.


The coins are the extra roll thing right? Well, allow them to have another use, and problem solved. Maybe a vendor that you can sell the coin to for Rep?
If the reward is good enough, the content will stand on it's own.

I'm not saying that they need to do both (remove rep and allow rep in dungeons). But they need to choose. Are they going to reward dungeoning and raiding with rep? Or are they going to reward dailies with something different?

I see the reason behind it. I just don't agree that it's a good reason. I wont lie, it is part of (not all, but part of) why I wouldn't consider coming back to play the game.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:07 am

forced to raid?
they are a perk to add to raiding, which isnt the issue

i agree with shoju, if you gave me a sweet armor set or nice looking gun to tmog into, i would do dailies til the emerald dream expansion to get them
but locking gear i need to have my character at his best for our raid teams success is different
yes, there will be people who complain they dont have anything to do cause they dont care about the toys/tmogging
there is ALWAYS someone to complain.

the main issue is there is a ton of ways to get valor, but only one way to spend it beyond upgrading gear...when 5.1 comes out

i agree, this needs its own thread now
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:17 am

JoeBravo wrote:maybe a mod can move this whole discussion to an appropriate thread? discussion doesn't seem to want to die. :P

bldavis wrote:i agree, this needs its own thread now

Done, that was harder than I thought!

Have a nice figh...er...discussion :mrgreen:
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:31 am

ty worldie, now we can get back to da lawlz and facepalms in amusements
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby econ21 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:58 am

It just struck me today - the blindingly obvious solution to the "problem" of dailies in MoP that the chap with many L90 alts complained about is to make reputation BOA. (Either that or just delink VP gear from reputation in 5.2.)

I don't mind the reputation grind on my main, largely because I'm done with it now. It wasn't something I greatly enjoyed, but it was fairly new content - there was a good amount of variety in the dailies with relatively few slow kill X boar type quests and it was certainly something to do when I am not raiding (which sadly atm is always). I hated the GL dailies, but even they got better as I got gear and went ret.

However, the idea of doing those grinds again on my alts does not bare thinking about. I may get GL honored or whatever for the LW and tailoring recipes. But that will be it.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:04 am

Man, am I gonna have to post my rant again?


I think I can summarize it as follows:
Rewarding multiple kinds of content with a currency (VP, roll tokens) you can only practically spend by doing a specific, and mutually exclusive (you can't do dailies and be downing a raid boss at the same time...), kind of content is not compelling game design from my perspective. Further, solutions which only benefit players (i.e. get exalted via current system, get rep buff on other toons) with multiple level-capped characters misses the point IMO.

For the roll tokens: let them either be a rep turn-in and be able to be used in 5-mans. That way the cap may also continue to make sense. Right now, if you don't raid - you really cease to care about these things.

For rep/VP: a few ideas:
1) rep grind leads to lower-VP cost items vs a vendor for the same item.
2) rep grind grants a tabard to grant rep in 5-mans and raids. Possibly a boost to dailies too. Can be behind a friendly/honored level rep-wall to help justify content and provide some gating/extension of play
3) rep gear not being VP purchase (say gold) and VP gear back on separate vendors (cata model - or even have the gear be the same) but have VP awarded for dailies as well (and still usable for upgrading items, which may be gated).

Edited to add: the 'grinds' I didn't see as grinds: tillers (yay farm!) and OOCS (woot! mount and some fun and quick dailies). The others though: ugh.
Last edited by benebarba on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:05 am

What was my drive to farm stuff post DS Patch?

Tmogging. Ask any Lurker you see where Shoju when he was on: The answer? Running Heroics with Guildies, Raiding, or Running old content for Rep (for tmogging items) or for the gear itself.

If you can appeal to people through quality content, and quality rewards, you don't need to bottleneck everyone into the rep grinds to get people into them.

Achievements, Reps (as an extension of achievements), Mounts, Pets, and Mog gear will push a good portion of people towards the content.
Add in Dailies that aren't boring and repetative, and you will get casual people to do them.
Spice them up with the Tillers, Anglers, and Cooking, and you can get more people involved.
Toss in things that are REALLY cool, but not "Necessary" and you can filter even more people in who want to get that super cool thing that you really want to have, but don't need to raid, and you can filter more people in, doing them at a casual pace to get that "Fun thing" (Costumes, weird trinkets, etc...)

There are plenty of ways to filter people into the content without bottlenecking their raid upgrades.

Are you going to get as many people doing the content with "Fun things" as you do with "Bottlenecking"? probably not, but the people who do participate will have an overall higher level of satisfaction, because they don't feel like they are being forced to play content that they don't want to do, because you want them to.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:25 am

to go with my previous post, i am EXALTED with hydroxian waterlords....
for those that dont know it is the rep from molten core
i did that grind of about 4-5 months of clearing it each week just for my warriors T1
when i finally got the last piece, i was about 3 weeks from exalted so i finished it up

i am going to go back in there on my ally dk just to get dark iron to make her sulfuran hammer
all for tmog purposes...

as an example of ways to get rep without dailies, i point to Tillers and OotCS
50 rep per farm harvest at 90, and 500 per egg for OotCS
give us something like that for others and i would be happy
collecting amber from perma-tree taps in dread wastes with klaxxi for example

blizz has said before that LFR is for those that are casual PVE'ers
though i would also like having the option to use tokens for rep
its either that, or just stockpile them for the next tier once you are fully geared
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