6.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:16 am

Treck wrote:The important thing with glyphing harsh words is that you dont think WoG replaces SotR, on occations you prioritize it higher, cause you are not taking any damage, most fights in mogushan vaults actually allow you to use it since there are many tank swaps or times you dont take physical damage, that said, im not sure if its a bigger dps increase than having glyph of focused shield instead (since imo battle healer is mandatory on all fights, and divine prot glyph is imo used on all as well, even tho that could be argued)

It's about 4x the DPS of Focused Shield, so even on a fight where tank swapping is 50/50, GoHW would win out. That said, I still don't use it myself, partly because of versatility (Harsh Words doesn't help if you're tanking during a burn phase, for example).

Also, I think you're right about HPr on Stone Guard being the high-DPS choice. It's probably close though due to the extra GCD pushback.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:46 am

theckhd wrote:It's about 4x the DPS of Focused Shield, so even on a fight where tank swapping is 50/50, GoHW would win out. That said, I still don't use it myself, partly because of versatility (Harsh Words doesn't help if you're tanking during a burn phase, for example).

Does this scale equally on all vengeance levels?
Problem with quantifying this is that its a big dps increase if you dont have alabaster, if you do its a smaller dps increase, but that means you need both glyphs, meaning no glyphed divine prot.
If you would to have both, if its like before, then 3x alabaster would mean just about the same damage as WoG?
Currently I really only use alabaster on stone guard, the other bosses hit to slow for it to be better than focused shield, and you obviously dont want thatone on stoneguard due to hitting 2 targets all the time.

HA bursting would do quite a bit more damage tho with harsh words, provided you are using it purely for dps.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Cragwell » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:16 am

I think Long Arm of the Law needs a slight edit here. As your haste increases, so does its value. Yes, its a great gap closer but it starts to shine quite a bit as Haste eats away at your judgement cooldown. With many pally tanks starting to value haste as the most valuable stat (after hard capping exp/hit) this is something that should be taken into account.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:16 am

I agree that the talent is underrated. It's not quite as reliable as Pursuit but it's got quite a bit more kick to it. I like it better than Speed of Light at any rate.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:14 am

I don't see how that rationalization changes anything about my description. It increases the uptime, but I still think it's inferior to either of the other two options. It costs you survivability if you want to hold it for a specific moment, and it doesn't give you the control that Speed of Light does. Again, it's not a bad talent, but it's harder to use and less versatile than the other two options.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:34 am

Rereading your description I'm inclined to agree. There are a lot of fights this tier where you need to quickly run to a stationary mob, though, and it's good for those. More often than the other two it is the "wrong" choice, which justifies an unfavorable rating. Speed of Light never seems to be up when I need it; I suppose if I had learned the fight with that talent, my opinion might be more positive.

I'm going to start respeccing more often. Maybe I should work out ideal specs for each fight.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 am

Long arm of the law is very nice for amber shaper tho, if you are getting flinged a lot :P
All other fights Speed Of light is superior imo.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Cragwell » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Well I didn't think I would ever find myself so firmly on the opposite side of "The Bringer of Headaches", but I am :)

A 45% speed buff that's up over half the time doing my regular rotation is very strong in my experience. Yes, its not always up at precisely the time I would like it to be, but it usually is. Even when it isn't, it is (at most) about 2 seconds away from being back. As my gear increases, so too will its utility. I am not suggesting that one should ever hold back in their normal rotation for a speed buff. All I am pointing out is that with a large amount of haste its never too far off.

As my haste increases more it comes back all the faster. I find myself zipping around more effectively than with any other of those movement based talents. Its also nice to not care one whit about how much HoPo I am carrying and just slam as many ShoRs as I can into the boss.

I honestly think that over time (specifically with a haste build) there is no other movement talent that one should even consider in that tier. Except on a fight where you want to move really fast every 45 seconds.

Lets chalk this one up to "check back later" :) I do think it is fair to point out that Haste does make it a better choice, even if you want to argue that its not the best choice.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Lastwolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:35 am

Hast makes it better for sure, but I find anytime I need to move I've found speed of light much more appealing, like Will of Emperors if you go the wrong way, speed is more likely to get you back in time than Pursuit.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Cragwell » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:33 am

Lastwolf,

Its funny you should mention that fight because its the exact one where I find Long Arm to be the most useful. Since your aren't taking damage from the boss during his 5 sweep sequence, I have Long Arm up for almost every one of those attacks. I find Long Arm especially useful there. I will take notice this week when we down him, but I think I have it up for every attack without fail.

So again your choice is one 70% speed buff every sequence of swings or 4-5 45% speed buffs every single sequence.

The best example is the Stomp followed by a center sweep. Left/Right sweeps are pretty easy to avoid with the boss facing you. But if memory serves I am often judging to get a nice boost out of the stomp range and then judging on my way back in to zip through him for a center sweep.

Anyway, overall point which I think cannot be disputed is that as your haste goes up, Long Arm becomes better.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:33 pm

I actually prefer PoJ for Will of the Emperors. A guaranteed 25-30% movement speed makes dodging everything pretty trivial to begin with. I'm sure 45% makes it even easier, but it wasn't clear to me that you'd be able to have it for every single move (I thought the cooldown on it was 5 seconds, which would require 20% haste on your part).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:03 pm

Idd, PoJ feels a lot better for will of the emperors, in any case both of them beats Speed of light ofcourse.
But you wont have LAotL for every single devastating attack, you can always save it if you get "easy" combo and dont need the movementspeed and then use for the next one.
In any case, you can do it without any movementspeed at all, so whatever you prefers, but I feel so handicapped with LAotL when its not up.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Cragwell » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:18 am

I am running with about 25% haste with full raid buffs. Really the only combo that I find is even slightly challenging on emps is the Stomp followed by a center swipe. As long as you are maintaining a forward facing to the boss, Left/Right swipes are child's play.

I find with that level of haste that LAotL is always there when I need it for that particular fight.

It should be noted that in my 10 man we are fully committed to a haste build for tanking. The DPS utility from a 10 man tank increases quite dramatically from a 25 man group. I am well committed to the haste path and may be running with a bit more than the median of the community right now.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Are you sure about that 25% haste number? That seems optimistic in tank gear. Remember that you don't care about spell haste for this, it's melee haste that afects Sanctity of Battle. And the character sheet value isn't correct either, as it includes the multiplicative 10% melee attack speed buff. So if you character sheet says 25% melee haste, you really have about 13.6% (which is still pretty high if you're stacking hit/exp to caps, but probably reachable if you're using a lot of hit/haste or exp/haste items).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Cragwell » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:45 am

Completely unbuffed I am running at 15.96% haste on the char sheet. I am also hard capped in hit/exp. Health total when raid buffed and flasked is 577k or so. Not really finding that stam pool to be a problem pre-heroic. We will have HoF cleared on Monday (have the empress into P3) and Heroic doggies down. I may find that the focus on haste is too severe at some point, but so far I haven't noticed a problem. I am completely ignoring stam in my gem slots, not counting meta of course, and going for haste and its hybrids for hit/exp.

I probably would not be doing this in a 25 man group, but the tank output in a 10 man is a significant factor in some of these enrage timers.

Anyway, we are getting off topic :) My point is that the higher your haste goes, the more attractive LAotL starts to look. Maybe those of us that are completely focused on haste are in the minority, but its a great talent when your Judgement CD starts to get near or below 5 seconds.
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