Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests Here)

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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Ziz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:41 pm

theckhd wrote:
Ziz wrote:Hey everyone, I need some advice on what trinket to get next. Here is my profile http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... Ziz/simple

I'm using Hit=Expertise (soft cap for now)>Mastery>Dodge=Parry

Valor (stamina) trinket and Relic of Niuzao are the best two trinkets to grab at this point. Though you seem to be prioritizing mastery ahead of stamina, even, as you're gemming mast/stam in blue slots and mastery in yellow.

I might suggest that if your goal is really hit/exp > mastery, then it might be better to gem hit/stam in yellow and blue slots and exp or exp/stam in red slots. Right now you're reforging 1454 stats into hit, and by gemming for more of it you'll be able to shift some more of that reforging into expertise. However, if you're happy with soft-cap (and don't want stamina), then what you're doing is probably fine.

Let's pretend that I don't want Relic of Niuzao because I am slightly insane instead of saying outright that I can't afford it right now. What should I use instead?

I will also take your advice on gemming and reforging into account. Thank you.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby UFTimmy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:56 pm

Why is my DPS so low? I do quite a bit of research, and I am just stumped. According to raidbots, the average DPS for kills on Elegon for Prot Paladins is 55k. We haven't killed him yet, but we can get into the last burn phase consistently. I am doing in the mid to low 30s in DPS.

Raidbots average DPS tool: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/a ... lt/#7o0000

I looked up a Prot Paladin on my server who does pretty well, and used the Raid bots comparison tool to examine what's different. You can click on either parse name at the top to see the actual WoL entry.

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/509c34a9 ... 896#damage

Finally, here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... s/advanced

Here are some things I've noticed, but I am not sure it accounts for the difference:

1. He uses the Sanctified Wrath talent, which increases the duration of Avenging Wrath, and allows him to use judgment more during AW. That's why his judgment damage is so much higher than mine. I am bad about remembering to use AW at all.

2. His overall damage taken was 33% higher than mine! This is big. He's taking a crapton more damage than me, which is leading to him having more vengeance. This explains why even though we both ShoTR the same amount, his did about twice as much damage as mine.

3. He used light's hammer, whereas I was using Execution Sentence only as a self heal. I've already made this switch.

4. He used Glyph of Avenging Wrath, that heals him during AW. I use Battle Healer. His healed for 200k for the fight, mine healed for 1.5 million. I think going with AW talented to increase the duration and damage done, healing received may be a good idea, but I don't think glyphing it makes sense.

Why is my DPS so low, and his so high? Why does he take twice as many Celestial Breaths per minute than I do? Is he cheesing vengeance to increase his DPS? Is there anything I am missing that I can do to increase my DPS?
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:11 pm

Ziz wrote:Let's pretend that I don't want Relic of Niuzao because I am slightly insane instead of saying outright that I can't afford it right now. What should I use instead?

Either pray for Jade Warlord Figurine to drop, or farm Iron Protector Talisman. There's also a mastery trinket from MSV that you can use in a pinch, it's better than other non-stamina options.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Nova » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:40 pm

UFTimmy wrote:Why is my DPS so low? I do quite a bit of research, and I am just stumped. According to raidbots, the average DPS for kills on Elegon for Prot Paladins is 55k. We haven't killed him yet, but we can get into the last burn phase consistently. I am doing in the mid to low 30s in DPS.

Raidbots average DPS tool: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/a ... lt/#7o0000

I looked up a Prot Paladin on my server who does pretty well, and used the Raid bots comparison tool to examine what's different. You can click on either parse name at the top to see the actual WoL entry.

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/509c34a9 ... 896#damage

Finally, here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... s/advanced

Here are some things I've noticed, but I am not sure it accounts for the difference:

1. He uses the Sanctified Wrath talent, which increases the duration of Avenging Wrath, and allows him to use judgment more during AW. That's why his judgment damage is so much higher than mine. I am bad about remembering to use AW at all.

2. His overall damage taken was 33% higher than mine! This is big. He's taking a crapton more damage than me, which is leading to him having more vengeance. This explains why even though we both ShoTR the same amount, his did about twice as much damage as mine.

3. He used light's hammer, whereas I was using Execution Sentence only as a self heal. I've already made this switch.

4. He used Glyph of Avenging Wrath, that heals him during AW. I use Battle Healer. His healed for 200k for the fight, mine healed for 1.5 million. I think going with AW talented to increase the duration and damage done, healing received may be a good idea, but I don't think glyphing it makes sense.

Why is my DPS so low, and his so high? Why does he take twice as many Celestial Breaths per minute than I do? Is he cheesing vengeance to increase his DPS? Is there anything I am missing that I can do to increase my DPS?

If you're using Battle Healer (which really helps in many fights), your DPS will be lower than if you use Seal of Truth, period. Glyph of Avenging Wrath is really lackbuster for Protection Paladins in my opinion.

Aside from that, I personally choose Holy Avenger talent, it helps a lot in the phase when you're tanking, and it really improves your DPS. As you've mentioned, Vengeance can help, but Vengeance is calculated on unmitigated damage, so I wouldn't be so sure.

Lastly, check their strategy. Does he concentrate on Elegon all the time? Does he attack the energy charges? Do they thank the small adds together? Do you take advantage of the magic floor up until the exact moment it drops (you can stand in a place where you get the buff and not fall, maximizing damage)? How much time do you spend on the magic floor? And so on.

PS: I'm doing similar damage to you if I'm reading my logs correctly. Remember, your job in that fight isn't maximizing your damage, you've got a lot of other things to take care about. Just concentrate on your survival (and your raid's!), as doing your rotation properly will maximize your DPS and survivability as well.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby UFTimmy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:58 pm

If you're using Battle Healer (which really helps in many fights), your DPS will be lower than if you use Seal of Truth, period. Glyph of Avenging Wrath is really lackbuster for Protection Paladins in my opinion.


Absolutely. But not 30K difference.

Aside from that, I personally choose Holy Avenger talent, it helps a lot in the phase when you're tanking, and it really improves your DPS. As you've mentioned, Vengeance can help, but Vengeance is calculated on unmitigated damage, so I wouldn't be so sure.


But if he's standing in breaths that he doesn't have to, that would would increase his DPS (at the expense of survivability/healer mana)

Lastly, check their strategy. Does he concentrate on Elegon all the time? Does he attack the energy charges? Do they thank the small adds together? Do you take advantage of the magic floor up until the exact moment it drops (you can stand in a place where you get the buff and not fall, maximizing damage)? How much time do you spend on the magic floor? And so on.


The link I gave shows targets. He has more up time on Elegon, but he actually manages to kill Elegon, whereas in my wipe, we died pretty early in the last burn phase, so my time on Elegon would be lower. Can you explain the standing on the floor until the last minute? We generally stay on the boss until the beams of energy appear between the pillars, then we run off the floor.

PS: I'm doing similar damage to you if I'm reading my logs correctly. Remember, your job in that fight isn't maximizing your damage, you've got a lot of other things to take care about. Just concentrate on your survival (and your raid's!), as doing your rotation properly will maximize your DPS and survivability as well.


Our raid is wiping due to DPS issues. Obviously, that's the DPS' job. But, if I can contribute an extra 15K without sacrificing survivability, I'd love to do that.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Ziz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:29 pm

theckhd wrote:
Ziz wrote:Let's pretend that I don't want Relic of Niuzao because I am slightly insane instead of saying outright that I can't afford it right now. What should I use instead?

Either pray for Jade Warlord Figurine to drop, or farm Iron Protector Talisman. There's also a mastery trinket from MSV that you can use in a pinch, it's better than other non-stamina options.

So stamina is the way to go for trinkets it seems.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:53 am

UFTimmy wrote:1. He uses the Sanctified Wrath talent, which increases the duration of Avenging Wrath, and allows him to use judgment more during AW. That's why his judgment damage is so much higher than mine. I am bad about remembering to use AW at all.

2. His overall damage taken was 33% higher than mine! This is big. He's taking a crapton more damage than me, which is leading to him having more vengeance. This explains why even though we both ShoTR the same amount, his did about twice as much damage as mine.

3. He used light's hammer, whereas I was using Execution Sentence only as a self heal. I've already made this switch.

4. He used Glyph of Avenging Wrath, that heals him during AW. I use Battle Healer. His healed for 200k for the fight, mine healed for 1.5 million. I think going with AW talented to increase the duration and damage done, healing received may be a good idea, but I don't think glyphing it makes sense.

Why is my DPS so low, and his so high? Why does he take twice as many Celestial Breaths per minute than I do? Is he cheesing vengeance to increase his DPS? Is there anything I am missing that I can do to increase my DPS?

Comments, though I'll add the disclaimer that I haven't looked at any of the links:
1) I don't think Sanctified Wrath is necessarily better than Holy Avenger on this fight. It will change your damage source distribution, of course, but that's not what you care about. This fight has lots of tank swapping if you're using the usual strategy, so you run the risk of wasting some of the additional AW duration unless you time it perfectly (and even then, I'm not sure there's 30 seconds between swaps). HA is only 18 seconds, which is easier to fit in. I generally tank 2nd (the other tank goes first, then picks up the first add), so I stand in the breaths beforehand to build up a chunk of Vengeance and then go to town on the boss with AW+HA(+potion). That gives a huge DPS burst early on.

If you're bad about remembering to use AW (or HA), fix it! Use an addon to remind you - I have a WeakAura hud that shows me which cooldowns are available, and I've trained myself to check it so that I don't waste AW/HA as much. Another option is to make big pulsating/flashing icons appear when they're available. Do something to help train yourself into using them more often, because that will be a big increase in DPS.

2) The damage taken value in WoL isn't strictly correlated to Vengeance, because Vengeance is based on pre-mitigation damage, not post-mitigation. For example, if he took 33% more damage because he never used SotR, that wouldn't give him more Vengeance. However, based on your later comments, he's standing in extra breaths, which will give him more Vengeance. You might want to try doing that as well.

3) LH should be slightly more DPS than offensive ES on this encounter, and certainly more than ES used defensively. While the single-target portions would favor ES, you have several situations where you can hit 3+ targets with LH, which should help it pull ahead. I also use it as a raid cooldown - after every Total Annihilation one of us drops a LH on the melee. Your best use is to drop one on Elegon + all the remaining adds at the beginning of phase 3, because you can easily hit 10+ targets for the full duration.

4) GoAW is crap. Battle Healer is going to be so much more useful on that fight, provided you're using Seal of Insight. And you really should be using SoI, because the DPS difference between it and SoT is minimal (<4k DPS).
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby UFTimmy » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:08 am

Wow! Thanks for the response.

I enjoy Active Mitigation and having to hit to survive, but I am not sure I will ever be able to fully embrace tanks taking damage on purpose to help the raid. That just seems so counter productive.

So, part of my raid's issue has been failing to kill the "sparks" during the transition phase. Generally, someone lets one through when we were not planning on it, which leads to fewer stacks, and a lack of a "burn" phase when we would let the sparks through intentionally. I have always been really diligent about clearing stacks during the spark phase, to lower my damage taken.

Is that foolish? Should I be trying to take as much damage as I can, without dying, to increase my DPS?
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Egtheridon » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:58 pm

Depending on how much problems your healers are having, I generally just let my stacks go up to increase my vengeance, but as prot you can also do a few things that helps on sparks. First you can drop a concecrate before they come out, second when they come out if your standing on the edge of one set of three you can Avenger's shield right when they come out to hit all three, at that point you just chase one down the lane, ideally you can fish for avenger's shield procs so you have it up for the next set of three. Generally if one is getting through its more of a dps problem than anything and tanks can assist. Personally I can solo maybe the first spark because my vengeance from tanking, but after that its pretty iffy for me to solo kill sparks even without reseting my stacks.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:19 pm

UFTimmy wrote:I have always been really diligent about clearing stacks during the spark phase, to lower my damage taken.

Is that foolish? Should I be trying to take as much damage as I can, without dying, to increase my DPS?

I don't think that debuff will increase your Vengeance at all (it's calculated before most buff/debuff effects, which is why SotR doesn't reduce your Vengeance taken). So there's no issue with resetting it.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Ziz » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:19 am

theckhd wrote:
Ziz wrote:Let's pretend that I don't want Relic of Niuzao because I am slightly insane instead of saying outright that I can't afford it right now. What should I use instead?

Either pray for Jade Warlord Figurine to drop, or farm Iron Protector Talisman. There's also a mastery trinket from MSV that you can use in a pinch, it's better than other non-stamina options.

Well I saved up enough to nab Relic of Niuzao. But if I replace Ghost Iron Dragonling with the Valor stam trinket, I'm afraid I won't be able to reforge to expertise cap. I can't even get expertise cap right now. Here's my armory again so you can see what I'm doing http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... Ziz/simple.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby UFTimmy » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:28 am

theckhd wrote:
UFTimmy wrote:I have always been really diligent about clearing stacks during the spark phase, to lower my damage taken.

Is that foolish? Should I be trying to take as much damage as I can, without dying, to increase my DPS?

I don't think that debuff will increase your Vengeance at all (it's calculated before most buff/debuff effects, which is why SotR doesn't reduce your Vengeance taken). So there's no issue with resetting it.


Interesting. So taking an extra breath or two will increase my DPS, but I should still reset stacks as I can. Thanks.

I too have "Bad" trinkets", I had the dodge trinket from Direbrew and the Ghost Iron Dragonling. I got the Relic from the faire, and replaced the dodge trinket from Direbrew. The hit/expertise/haste from the Dragongling seemed too valuable to pass up, even though it's a much lower ilevel. I'm working towards revered with ShadoPan to grab that one, though I haven't done any dailies in a few weeks.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Ziz » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:49 am

Yea, without Ghost Iron I will be much farther from the 15% cap (I think that's what it is) than I am now, which is about 10%.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby pbean » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:35 pm

Small question about the Elegon discussion... do I understand well that magic now also gives vengeance? Or has it always done that? I was under the impression only physical damage gave vengeance.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Albirieo » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:25 pm

I've been lurking quite awhile, and I'm wondering if there's anything better I can do with my gear to get ready for LFR. I'm only a few points away from que and I want to be the best I can. Character I know gems, and enchants may not be viable, I haven't picked any out as I wanted to seek advice first before I go. Expertise is certainly not viable either as it's very low.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby econ21 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:32 am

I was a few points short of the LFR requirement last night on my warrior alt and so in the end what I did was buy a relic of nuizao to close the gap. As theckhd has argued on this site, stamina is a great tank stat - perhaps especially when you are under-geared.

Another thing to think of, not so much for the ilevel but for power, is buying an honour helm so you can get a meta-gem. You can convert JP to honour and running Tol Barad is often a painless way to get honour (600 a victory).

You really need to gem and enchant though.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:06 am

UFTimmy wrote:
theckhd wrote:
UFTimmy wrote:I have always been really diligent about clearing stacks during the spark phase, to lower my damage taken.

Is that foolish? Should I be trying to take as much damage as I can, without dying, to increase my DPS?

I don't think that debuff will increase your Vengeance at all (it's calculated before most buff/debuff effects, which is why SotR doesn't reduce your Vengeance taken). So there's no issue with resetting it.


Interesting. So taking an extra breath or two will increase my DPS, but I should still reset stacks as I can. Thanks.

I too have "Bad" trinkets", I had the dodge trinket from Direbrew and the Ghost Iron Dragonling. I got the Relic from the faire, and replaced the dodge trinket from Direbrew. The hit/expertise/haste from the Dragongling seemed too valuable to pass up, even though it's a much lower ilevel. I'm working towards revered with ShadoPan to grab that one, though I haven't done any dailies in a few weeks.


I wouldn't take anymore breaths that is entirely necessary, as a tank your primary job is to hold aggro (which is easy these days) and your secondary job is to not die, the difference in vengeance isn't worth it, even if it did work.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:20 am

The difference in Vengeance is enough to double your DPS while off-tanking (0->40k+ Vengeance), at essentially no risk to you because you're not taking melees at that time. It's certainly enough to consider worthwhile.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fetzie » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:38 am

What doesn't work for generating extra Vengeance is using Hand of Sacrifice on the other tank, probably because it counts as player damage.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Taeron » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:54 am

Is it just me or are the leg/hands tier pieces a bit underwhelming compared to non-tier drops from HoF, seeing as how both pants and gloves that drop in HoF have an extra gem socket.

I'm finding it hard to keep gloves/pants from tier just because of a shorter cooldown on AD and losing like 8k hp in the process...
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Knievel » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:14 am

I'm wondering about gearing priorities. The more I have researched what stats are important the more I realized that the absolute lowest priorities for a tank are surprisingly Parry and Dodge (in addition of course to Crit). For example, based on The Honorable Theck's calculations for Expertise and Hit, all of my gear is being reforged, including the parry and dodge.

So my question is simple: For tanking gear, should I be looking first for gear that does not include the Parry and Dodge stats at all?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/k ... l/advanced
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby econ21 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:49 am

Knievel wrote:For tanking gear, should I be looking first for gear that does not include the Parry and Dodge stats at all?


That does seem to be the logic of the "control" gearing strategy: using that gearing scheme, in AskMrRobot, parry/dodge are rated 0.25 compared to 1 for haste/mastery and 3 for hit/expertise.

However, parry/dodge are the best stats for reducing your total melee damage, so I would not regard them as bad stats for a tank. They are good. It's just that they are not as good as hit, expertise, haste, mastery, spirit, spell penetration and intellect (sorry, strike those last three :D ).

I personally am rather loathe to turn down a higher ilevel tanking piece for some lower level one that has a better mix of stats (as the higher ilevel comes with more stamina, armour, strength and budget for secondary stats). However, when I get a choice of two pieces of the same ilevel, like the Klaxxi exalted quest ring, I do often avoid the one with avoidance.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:36 am

Opinions on two points! Link is in the sig, with desired stat priority: Hit/Exp -> Haste -> Mastery (and Stam, but that's a given, duh).
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I'll probably buy a new VP piece soonish, and I'm currently considering the DPS Ring - Ring of the Golden Stair (Exp/Crit) to replace Jan-Ho's Unwavering Seal. I should be able to hit the exp and hit hard caps without much trouble with it. I'm also considering the chest (hit/exp) or the legs (exp/dodge), or just pool my VP for item upgrades.

Second point being: Is anyone thinking I'm overshooting on Stam? I don't think I have "too much", but I'd rather have a second opinion.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Nooska » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:09 am

On the 2 pieces you are considering, I'd go with the ring - the chest is more likely to be replaced (and thus "wasted" VP).
On the amount of stam, and looking at your health, I'd say you could be safe to switch out some stam for control stats if you want - you are not low on health from what I've seen so far, and not spiky either - have you actually died without it being a mechanics handling failure (from the raid) or healers dieing so far?
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:54 am

Not that I remember. Even then, I wonder if there even *is* such a thing as too much stam. I've had a couple close calls yesterday, where I was left < 20%, mostly due to a nasty unmitigated hit + high stack breath.

Here's one
And another

Healing is low, but my stam gives me the room to eat a series of hits AND a breath and still have a second to LoH myself, while they focus on the add's damage.

EDIT: BTW, I realize this explains why Gurzog dies from time to time - he's probably in a similar situation as myself, without the LoH to fall back on.
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