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Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:24 am

And note that we will always have 10% spell haste from SoI, and the raid spell haste buff, plus any haste on our gear. So for us it will always be 800*spell_haste absorption per second.

Dancing Steel is going to be better than River's Song. The uptimes are similar, but DS gives you parry (which in most gear sets is diminished less than dodge), plus some DPS, plus some SoI healing.

Correcting some of the math on Windsong: Since each buff is independent, let's take the best-case situation where you get 2 procs that do not overlap (such that you won't "waste" half of a haste buff by getting another haste proc, for example). It's 1500 rating for 12s out of 60s, for an average effect of 300 rating. You get 2 procs per minute, so your average effect is 600 rating, but it's random what you get. Since we ignore crit, that means you actually get 600*2/3 = 400 average rating from the enchant. Note also that half of that rating is mastery and half is haste. And remember, in terms of raw TDR, haste is abysmal. Putting my current stats into my spreadsheet, I get the following stat weights:

Code: Select all
Armor     0.8358
Parry     0.4324
Dodge     0.4339
Strength  0.4224
Mastery     0.4380
Hit     0.2248
Expertise 0.1445
Haste     0.1722

So haste is about 0.1722/0.4380=39.3% as good as mastery for TDR. Having 200 haste and 200 mastery is roughly equivalent to having 278.6 mastery. Using your conversion of uptime*rating/600, that's only 0.232% reduced damage taken even at 50% uptime on SotR. However, there's an error here too - this is absolute damage taken, not relative damage taken. To correct it, we'd need to divide by the amount we actually take (i.e. if we only take 70% of the damage that's coming at us, it's 0.00232/0.3=0.0077, or ~0.8% relative damage reduction).

In practice, this number is about right. With my stat weights, my TDR is around 71.5%, or 28.5% of raw boss damage taken. So, using our guess of about 0.8% relative damage reduction, how much DTPS must we be seeing in logs for this to equal Colossus absorption?

It should be (0.8%*DTPS)=880, or about 110k DTPS. Note that I've included the free 10% spell haste we get from SoI there, but not other haste contributions (spell haste raid buff, haste on gear, bloodlust, etc.). In practice the number will be a little higher. For example, in my gear set I have 4.14% haste, for 14.14% total before raid buffs and 14.847% after raid buffs, which means I'd be getting around 1188 HPS from colossus, raising the threshold to 148.5k DTPS.

So in 5.1, Windsong will definitely not be the best TDR enchant. Colossus has it beat by a fair bit, and even during high-damage-intake situations they'll be about equal. As of right now, Colossus' proc rate is a little lower - on our last Stone Guard 25H kill, it procced 34 times for 272k absorption in about 7 minutes, for about 650 HPS. That's still well ahead of Windsong's TDR performance.

In other words, if you are choosing Windsong for reasons of TDR, you're doing it wrong.

Now, you might argue that we're not gearing for hit/exp/haste/mastery for TDR, and you'd be right about that. We're gearing for them because it gives us greater control over our survivability. But I think that's makes for an even weaker argument for Windsong. What gives you more reliable damage smoothing: an 8k absorb every 10-12 seconds, or an uncontrollable proc that may or may not be up when you need it, and has a chance of giving you back-to-back crit procs that don't help you?

Personally, I'd take the 8k absorb. Because my usual death scenario is a 5-8 second window where I'm bursted down without enough healing. There's a very good chance that I'll have one Colossus proc in that window. There's a much smaller chance that I have a useful Windsong proc covering that window. Admittedly, if it does line up, it's a much stronger defensive effect than an 8k absorb, but I'd rather have the 8k absorb 80% of the time than the much larger effect 25% of the time (roughly estimating, 12s*(4/3)/60s=26.6%).
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Schroom » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:29 am

ok so the question remains.... weapon chain or colossus :/
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby jere » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:18 am

theckhd wrote:In other words, if you are choosing Windsong for reasons of TDR, you're doing it wrong.


Luckily, I have only been choosing Windsong because it was sitting in our guild bank. :D
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:51 pm

jere wrote:Luckily, I have only been choosing Windsong because it was sitting in our guild bank. :D

Perfectly valid. See also: free beer.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Fishnuts » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:35 pm

Schroom wrote:ok so the question remains.... weapon chain or colossus :/


Yes this! Does 200 expertise outrank 800 damage reduction per sec?
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:29 pm

I'd say the 800damage reduction, can get 200expertise anywhere else it's less than 1 gem, can't get that shield.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby lakhesis » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:39 pm

Just some notes from looking at wowhead's info so far:

- Dancing Steel is a 12 second proc
- River's Song is a 7 second proc

So on a 2RPPM for DS and 4RPPM for RS, you're looking at 24 seconds of Dancing Steel uptime and 28 seconds of River's Song uptime. Which pretty conclusively makes River's Song crap imo.

I kinda like the idea of the weapon chain. It's always there, it adds concrete utility to a control strat versus Colossus's random EH boosting. That said, Colossus is roughly the equivalent of having an extra 435 stam 6 times a minute, so that is fairly solid.

If you were really desperate to convert it to stat weights, you could describe Colossus as covering 6 x 1.5s swings, so 15% uptime of 435 stam. In reality it'll be warped by your avoidance though so that's undervaluing Colossus.

With Theck's askmrrobot stat weights (2.68 for stam, 1.9 for expertise, 0.5 for strength) that's:
Colossus = 2.68 x 435 x 0.15 = 174.87
Weapon Chain = 200 x 1.9 = 380
Dancing Steel = (2 x 12 / 60) x 1680 x 0.5 = 336

With the weapon chain & dancing steel also having the side bonus of boosting your DPS.

I don't think that's really a great way of making the decision, but I do think it lays out a decent starting point. As I said, I'm leaning towards the chain personally but currently I've tossed Colossus on cos it's cheap & I haven't made up my mind.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:47 pm

Would Colossus truly account for ~435 stamina since, once it successfully absorbs, until it procs again, there isn't the possibility to heal it back up?

Also, should Colossus double proc (if it can), does it stack the bubble or just replace it?
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:50 am

well according to my own logs, it sometimes does less healing so it must referesh, but I think double proc's are removed in 5.1.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby lifeonmars » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:28 am

Hespherus wrote:Am i the only one considering Dancing steel? 1650 strength for 12 seconds every minute? Thats roughly 1600 parry rating, plus more dps/healing and absorbs from sacred shield if refreshed during that window.


Dancing Steel makes the most sense if you're not going Collosus in my opinion.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby lifeonmars » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:20 pm

lakhesis wrote:With the weapon chain & dancing steel also having the side bonus of boosting your DPS.


I think it's worth point out that for somebody who is following the hit cap / hardcap expertise gearing strategy, the weapon chain is not actually a dps boost, it's actually an indirect mitigation stat boost. In practice, it means that you can arrive at an optimization that has a little more mastery or haste (depending on your strategy) via gem or reforge changes, given the constraint of maintaining 7.5% hit 15% expertise.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Thels » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:41 am

I'm currently using the Living Steel Weapon Chain because I'm having a hard time expertise-hardcapping, even as a human with a sword. Even with reforging everything to hit/expertise, I still need to gem for it. Oh, and because there were some disarm mobs here and there in HCs, though that's no longer my concern.

The Dancing Steel looks confusing to me. First you need to hope the proc's up. Then you need to hope you actually do parry. :|

At least Colossus seems fairly guaranteed DR per minute, but overall I'm still inclining to stick to a passive bonus. I just don't like procs much.
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