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Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests Here)

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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:10 am

jere wrote:I had heard the cooldowns for both the Jade Warlord and the VP trinket were shared so you lose out on a cooldown if you get both? Obviously that is just what I heard as I don't have either yet. Is that of any merit in trinket selection if so (losing one cooldown)? It might be that the cooldowns don't matter enough yet, but thought I would check as well as I am considering buying the DMFC trinket instead for that reason.

They do not share a cooldown. Or at least, the VP trinket and Relic of Niuzao do not, and I believe Jade Warlord works the same way. In beta, nearly all of these "shared cooldown" mechanics were eliminated and replaced with a new "lockout" system (for lack of a better term, I'm making this one up on the fly). Basically, if you use the clicky on one trinket, the other trinket will get put on a cooldown equal to the duration of the first trinket's effect. This ensures that you can't have both effects up at once, but doesn't prevent you from chaining them.

So for example, Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage grants a 15-seocnd mastery buff and Relic of Niuzao grants a 12-second dodge buff. If I click LCLC, RoN gets a 15-second cooldown. If I use RoN first, LCLC gets a 12-second cooldown. I can still chain them back to back (which is often the preferred method anyhow) without issue. As far as I'm aware, this lockout only happens if the trinket isn't already on a cooldown exceeding the duration. So for example, if I use RoN early in the fight, and use LCLC when RoN still has 20 seconds left on its cooldown, it doesn't add time to that cooldown. If RoN still had 10 seconds left on the cooldown, it would be increased to 15.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:13 am

Raive wrote:Also, is it bad I'm still using the ghost iron dragonling? 600 of each of our best stats just seems so juicy I'm wary of replacing it with the iron protector talisman I have

Yes, because stamina is more valuable than hit/exp and much more valuable than haste/mastery, especially at low gear levels. In terms of stat weights, if haste/mastery are ~1, hit/exp are between 2-6 and stam is between 2.7-8. The numbers I usually use when optimizing my own gear are 3 for hit/exp and 4 for stamina, though I'll occasionally use 6 for hit/exp and 8 for stam if I'm trying to juggle the caps more effectively.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby jere » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:48 am

theckhd wrote:They do not share a cooldown. Or at least, the VP trinket and Relic of Niuzao do not, and I believe Jade Warlord works the same way. In beta, nearly all of these "shared cooldown" mechanics were eliminated and replaced with a new "lockout" system (for lack of a better term, I'm making this one up on the fly). Basically, if you use the clicky on one trinket, the other trinket will get put on a cooldown equal to the duration of the first trinket's effect. This ensures that you can't have both effects up at once, but doesn't prevent you from chaining them.


Thanks! I was more worried about the VP trinket and the raid drop one as they both have the exact same cooldown, but it sounds like I can still chain them. I was considering the Relic to avoid that issue, but if they can be chained then that makes it an easier choice.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:51 am

May be worth investing in a Relic either way. It looks like Jade Warlord is a random drop in MSV, so the chance of seeing one at all before that raid is obsolete may be very small. I managed to buy the cards for my Relic for around 5k about a week before the fair came around again, and they should be getting steadily cheaper as more people max professions and create cards.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby jere » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:04 am

Full up cards were on our AH for 13k last night...about 8 of them. I'm gonna see what they look like this evening.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Nova » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:18 am

Hi everybody! I'm wondering what should be my next Valor Point purchase.

Here's my profile.
According to the reputations I've got access to, I was thinking on a cloak or helm. I don't think I've got access to a ring yet.

Any thoughts? Thanks a lot in advance.

PS: Any gear that could double as a Retribution gear gets a plus.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Lastwolf » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:42 am

I was in the same position about a week ago, I went for the cloak, helm might have been the better option.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Ziz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:05 pm

Hey everyone, I need some advice on what trinket to get next. Here is my profile http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... Ziz/simple

I'm using Hit=Expertise (soft cap for now)>Mastery>Dodge=Parry
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:39 pm

Nova wrote:Hi everybody! I'm wondering what should be my next Valor Point purchase.

Here's my profile.
According to the reputations I've got access to, I was thinking on a cloak or helm. I don't think I've got access to a ring yet.

Any thoughts? Thanks a lot in advance.

PS: Any gear that could double as a Retribution gear gets a plus.


If you want something that will serve double-duty, consider Voice Amplifying Greathelm. I was seriously considering picking it up instead of Yi's Least Favorite Helm for the same reason. Yi's is slightly better for survivability (the amount depends on exactly how much you value stamina - it's +270 stam or ~5k HP at the cost of ~0.5% hit/exp), but it's not a very large margin at all. In the end I think I'm still going to get Yi's because my engineering goggles are almost as good as Voice Amplifying Greathelm, but if I didn't have those goggles I'd definitely pick up the Greathelm.

The helm looks like the best choice for your next purchase. You'll get a good ring from Klaxxi, and the cloak isn't as big an upgrade.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:46 pm

Ziz wrote:Hey everyone, I need some advice on what trinket to get next. Here is my profile http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... Ziz/simple

I'm using Hit=Expertise (soft cap for now)>Mastery>Dodge=Parry

Valor (stamina) trinket and Relic of Niuzao are the best two trinkets to grab at this point. Though you seem to be prioritizing mastery ahead of stamina, even, as you're gemming mast/stam in blue slots and mastery in yellow.

I might suggest that if your goal is really hit/exp > mastery, then it might be better to gem hit/stam in yellow and blue slots and exp or exp/stam in red slots. Right now you're reforging 1454 stats into hit, and by gemming for more of it you'll be able to shift some more of that reforging into expertise. However, if you're happy with soft-cap (and don't want stamina), then what you're doing is probably fine.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Ziz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:41 pm

theckhd wrote:
Ziz wrote:Hey everyone, I need some advice on what trinket to get next. Here is my profile http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... Ziz/simple

I'm using Hit=Expertise (soft cap for now)>Mastery>Dodge=Parry

Valor (stamina) trinket and Relic of Niuzao are the best two trinkets to grab at this point. Though you seem to be prioritizing mastery ahead of stamina, even, as you're gemming mast/stam in blue slots and mastery in yellow.

I might suggest that if your goal is really hit/exp > mastery, then it might be better to gem hit/stam in yellow and blue slots and exp or exp/stam in red slots. Right now you're reforging 1454 stats into hit, and by gemming for more of it you'll be able to shift some more of that reforging into expertise. However, if you're happy with soft-cap (and don't want stamina), then what you're doing is probably fine.

Let's pretend that I don't want Relic of Niuzao because I am slightly insane instead of saying outright that I can't afford it right now. What should I use instead?

I will also take your advice on gemming and reforging into account. Thank you.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby UFTimmy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:56 pm

Why is my DPS so low? I do quite a bit of research, and I am just stumped. According to raidbots, the average DPS for kills on Elegon for Prot Paladins is 55k. We haven't killed him yet, but we can get into the last burn phase consistently. I am doing in the mid to low 30s in DPS.

Raidbots average DPS tool: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/a ... lt/#7o0000

I looked up a Prot Paladin on my server who does pretty well, and used the Raid bots comparison tool to examine what's different. You can click on either parse name at the top to see the actual WoL entry.

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/509c34a9 ... 896#damage

Finally, here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... s/advanced

Here are some things I've noticed, but I am not sure it accounts for the difference:

1. He uses the Sanctified Wrath talent, which increases the duration of Avenging Wrath, and allows him to use judgment more during AW. That's why his judgment damage is so much higher than mine. I am bad about remembering to use AW at all.

2. His overall damage taken was 33% higher than mine! This is big. He's taking a crapton more damage than me, which is leading to him having more vengeance. This explains why even though we both ShoTR the same amount, his did about twice as much damage as mine.

3. He used light's hammer, whereas I was using Execution Sentence only as a self heal. I've already made this switch.

4. He used Glyph of Avenging Wrath, that heals him during AW. I use Battle Healer. His healed for 200k for the fight, mine healed for 1.5 million. I think going with AW talented to increase the duration and damage done, healing received may be a good idea, but I don't think glyphing it makes sense.

Why is my DPS so low, and his so high? Why does he take twice as many Celestial Breaths per minute than I do? Is he cheesing vengeance to increase his DPS? Is there anything I am missing that I can do to increase my DPS?
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:11 pm

Ziz wrote:Let's pretend that I don't want Relic of Niuzao because I am slightly insane instead of saying outright that I can't afford it right now. What should I use instead?

Either pray for Jade Warlord Figurine to drop, or farm Iron Protector Talisman. There's also a mastery trinket from MSV that you can use in a pinch, it's better than other non-stamina options.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Nova » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:40 pm

UFTimmy wrote:Why is my DPS so low? I do quite a bit of research, and I am just stumped. According to raidbots, the average DPS for kills on Elegon for Prot Paladins is 55k. We haven't killed him yet, but we can get into the last burn phase consistently. I am doing in the mid to low 30s in DPS.

Raidbots average DPS tool: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10N/a ... lt/#7o0000

I looked up a Prot Paladin on my server who does pretty well, and used the Raid bots comparison tool to examine what's different. You can click on either parse name at the top to see the actual WoL entry.

http://raidbots.com/comparebot/509c34a9 ... 896#damage

Finally, here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... s/advanced

Here are some things I've noticed, but I am not sure it accounts for the difference:

1. He uses the Sanctified Wrath talent, which increases the duration of Avenging Wrath, and allows him to use judgment more during AW. That's why his judgment damage is so much higher than mine. I am bad about remembering to use AW at all.

2. His overall damage taken was 33% higher than mine! This is big. He's taking a crapton more damage than me, which is leading to him having more vengeance. This explains why even though we both ShoTR the same amount, his did about twice as much damage as mine.

3. He used light's hammer, whereas I was using Execution Sentence only as a self heal. I've already made this switch.

4. He used Glyph of Avenging Wrath, that heals him during AW. I use Battle Healer. His healed for 200k for the fight, mine healed for 1.5 million. I think going with AW talented to increase the duration and damage done, healing received may be a good idea, but I don't think glyphing it makes sense.

Why is my DPS so low, and his so high? Why does he take twice as many Celestial Breaths per minute than I do? Is he cheesing vengeance to increase his DPS? Is there anything I am missing that I can do to increase my DPS?

If you're using Battle Healer (which really helps in many fights), your DPS will be lower than if you use Seal of Truth, period. Glyph of Avenging Wrath is really lackbuster for Protection Paladins in my opinion.

Aside from that, I personally choose Holy Avenger talent, it helps a lot in the phase when you're tanking, and it really improves your DPS. As you've mentioned, Vengeance can help, but Vengeance is calculated on unmitigated damage, so I wouldn't be so sure.

Lastly, check their strategy. Does he concentrate on Elegon all the time? Does he attack the energy charges? Do they thank the small adds together? Do you take advantage of the magic floor up until the exact moment it drops (you can stand in a place where you get the buff and not fall, maximizing damage)? How much time do you spend on the magic floor? And so on.

PS: I'm doing similar damage to you if I'm reading my logs correctly. Remember, your job in that fight isn't maximizing your damage, you've got a lot of other things to take care about. Just concentrate on your survival (and your raid's!), as doing your rotation properly will maximize your DPS and survivability as well.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby UFTimmy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:58 pm

If you're using Battle Healer (which really helps in many fights), your DPS will be lower than if you use Seal of Truth, period. Glyph of Avenging Wrath is really lackbuster for Protection Paladins in my opinion.


Absolutely. But not 30K difference.

Aside from that, I personally choose Holy Avenger talent, it helps a lot in the phase when you're tanking, and it really improves your DPS. As you've mentioned, Vengeance can help, but Vengeance is calculated on unmitigated damage, so I wouldn't be so sure.


But if he's standing in breaths that he doesn't have to, that would would increase his DPS (at the expense of survivability/healer mana)

Lastly, check their strategy. Does he concentrate on Elegon all the time? Does he attack the energy charges? Do they thank the small adds together? Do you take advantage of the magic floor up until the exact moment it drops (you can stand in a place where you get the buff and not fall, maximizing damage)? How much time do you spend on the magic floor? And so on.


The link I gave shows targets. He has more up time on Elegon, but he actually manages to kill Elegon, whereas in my wipe, we died pretty early in the last burn phase, so my time on Elegon would be lower. Can you explain the standing on the floor until the last minute? We generally stay on the boss until the beams of energy appear between the pillars, then we run off the floor.

PS: I'm doing similar damage to you if I'm reading my logs correctly. Remember, your job in that fight isn't maximizing your damage, you've got a lot of other things to take care about. Just concentrate on your survival (and your raid's!), as doing your rotation properly will maximize your DPS and survivability as well.


Our raid is wiping due to DPS issues. Obviously, that's the DPS' job. But, if I can contribute an extra 15K without sacrificing survivability, I'd love to do that.
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