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AskMrRobot

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:01 pm

So I just jumped back onto AMR and checked. My gear with the control/haste defaults puts me at 12.04% Exp and 7.64% Hit. Changing the Stam weight back to the 2.53 that I have been using I am readjusted to 14.86% Exp and no change to hit. This weight has worked for every piece of gear that I have added. Also @Nova, I have always had the Colossus enchant recommended since day one, though there has been some talk that the Weapon Chain is noteworthy to use as well due to it's raw exp stats.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:40 pm

Nova wrote:But I think it's still bugged, or their reasoning is flawed. The thing is that it still aims WAY too far below the Expertise Hard Cap. Like 5-6% (using default Stat Weights), and that could mean a lot of missed Holy Power generators, which in turn lead to less Shield of the Righteous coverage. You can see an example using my profile here. I'm over Hit and Expertise Caps, but when using their "optimizer", it puts me far below Expertise Hard Cap, all for a 1% increase in the Overall Score.

The "force caps" option doesn't even take into account the 15% Expertise Hard Cap. I'm not sure about posting in their forums to point this, but...

Something is definitely fishy. But it's not the algorithm's fault - it's the stat weights. Working out the math, it's putting Solids in red slots with dodge/parry bonuses, because the stat weights make that work out to be numerically superior. (160*1.9+120*2.68+60*0.25)=640.6, but 240*2.68=643.2.

Partly that's because the expertise weight is too low. It should really be set to 1.99, not 1.9. That gets you much closer to the caps (7.66% hit, 9.93% exp).

If I use some of my usual custom stat weights, I can improve that more. Example: stam=4, hit=3, exp=2.99, +force caps, gets me up to 10.73% exp. stam=8, hit=6, exp=5.99 gets me to 11.31% exp by replacing Colossus with a weapon chain (no change in hit with either setting).

At your gear level, you're simply going to have trouble hitting exp cap. You just don't have enough rating to go around unless you pick up higher-ilvl items or more items with hit/exp on them natively. I'd recommend sticking with stamina and living with being ~4% under exp cap for now. The extra 36k health you get (a ~7% increase from your current setup) is probably more important for progression.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:51 pm

Extermi wrote:Also, I disagree to the statement of the blog post about probabilities for "missing in the second that matters". If I have say a 1/400 chance to miss, this is also the chance that my "attack that matters" misses, not something multiplied by the fight duration - Mr Robot is definitely off in his stochastical analysis.

Yeah, you're correct. After reading their blog post, that stands out as pretty blatantly wrong. Their calculation incorrectly assumes you'll get exactly 1 miss in 435 hits, and they're calculating the probability that that one miss lines up with the one second of the fight you care about. They've artificially made the two things interdependent.

However, that's not how probability works. Each event is independent. Your chance to miss the attack that matters is always 0.25%.

Curious that they would make this error, since they properly used binomial statistics in the first part of the blog post.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:27 am

theckhd wrote:At your gear level, you're simply going to have trouble hitting exp cap. You just don't have enough rating to go around unless you pick up higher-ilvl items or more items with hit/exp on them natively. I'd recommend sticking with stamina and living with being ~4% under exp cap for now. The extra 36k health you get (a ~7% increase from your current setup) is probably more important for progression.

Thanks for the tip. Yesterday shoulders and waist dropped for me, raising my ilvl to 481 (here, without updating from armory as I've logged of in Ret gear).

I can reach Expertise Hard Cap with my current setup through some aggresive gemming, but do you think it's better to have something like thisnow, during progression? (We're progessing on the second boss of Heart of Fear Normal right now).

What I mean is, at my gear level you think it's better to lean towards Stamina?

Thanks again in advance, and I apologize for my English. It's noy my native language.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:50 am

At your gear level, I would still lean towards stamina. A good rule of thumb is to put exp/stam in every red socket, hit/stam in every yellow, and stam in every blue/prismatic socket. From there, try and reforge for hit/exp caps (or let AMR do it for you by locking all of your gem slots). At really low levels of gear it can be worth gemming straight stamina everywhere, but I think you're above that threshold by a fair amount already. As your gear improves, you can just keep using this technique, because it will eventually end up reforging any excess rating into haste or mastery (depending on what you have AMR set up to prefer). You can also unlock yellow gem slots at that point, as sometimes a haste/stam gem will let you get closer to hit cap than a hit/stam gem due to reforging.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:17 pm

Will try that out, thanks. The AddOn ReforgeLite does a very good job in reforging while locking gems.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby halabar » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:34 pm

Amused/Annoyed that MrRobot has "recalculated" for spriests, now I need to change my haste gems to int/haste, and I don't have that cut yet... grrr....
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:50 pm

My belt is not in their database so AMR think im not using a belt at all ;(
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby econ21 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:13 am

I wonder if a tweak needs to be made for weapons? Is it giving enough weight to base weapon damage? AMR is telling me to use a 450 weapon (the scenario arena one) instead of the crafted 463 (mastery/crit) one. I wonder if it is appropriately factoring in weapon dps? Due to the impact on dps, I am loathe to go for a lower ilevel weapon, although mechanical tank gear listings (e.g. wowhead) often imply that due to their emphasis on the survival stats. Maybe I am wrong and should go for survival stats all the way, but I feel that with comparing weapons of different ilevel, the impact of base weapon damage on dps is so big relative to the weapon's small amount of survival stats, that it is decisive.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby lythac » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:17 am

econ21 wrote:I wonder if a tweak needs to be made for weapons? Is it giving enough weight to base weapon damage? AMR is telling me to use a 450 weapon (the scenario arena one) instead of the crafted 463 (mastery/crit) one. I wonder if it is appropriately factoring in weapon dps?


It does not appear to be factoring in weapon DPS at all. Looking at the stat weights for both Prot Paladins and Prot Warriors it gives weapon DPS a big fat zero.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Jaitee » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:59 am

lythac wrote:
econ21 wrote:I wonder if a tweak needs to be made for weapons? Is it giving enough weight to base weapon damage? AMR is telling me to use a 450 weapon (the scenario arena one) instead of the crafted 463 (mastery/crit) one. I wonder if it is appropriately factoring in weapon dps?


It does not appear to be factoring in weapon DPS at all. Looking at the stat weights for both Prot Paladins and Prot Warriors it gives weapon DPS a big fat zero.


i think its because it only factors in survivability stats and weapon dps has almost no value in that (at most it will kill the boss faster)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:23 am

After some serious upgrades (I had a happy wednesday with T13 legs, and LFR bracers + boots dropping) I revisited AMR:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/die_ewige%20wacht/extermi

Basically, I am still unhappy with the optimization, and ended up doing it manually. Alle the presets but me away several % from at least exp cap even if I click the new "force" switch in the options, for a moderate increase in stamina. I simply did not get my gearing strategy (hit+exp to hardcap, then as much sta as possible, then haste/mastery) to work at all, and ended up doing it manually.

In the final configuration, putting the weights to Stamina = 2.5, Hit + Exp (incl. hardcap) = 2 it basically confirms the choices I made, yet its a shame I cant get these simple rules entered. I tried reforgelite but this was even worse. I cant understand its so complicated to just find the optimum, as at least in my current gearset the number of possible permutations would be so low that you probably could even just take a brute force approach 8)

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:09 am

I really don't understand Mr. Robot anymore.

When selecting my Retribution spec, which is over Hit and Expertise cap, when I click on optimize, it puts me well below both caps, which together add many chances to miss hits.

It used to work better.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby pbean » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:14 pm

Extermi wrote:Basically, I am still unhappy with the optimization, and ended up doing it manually. Alle the presets but me away several % from at least exp cap even if I click the new "force" switch in the options, for a moderate increase in stamina. I simply did not get my gearing strategy (hit+exp to hardcap, then as much sta as possible, then haste/mastery) to work at all, and ended up doing it manually.

I think the force option would only put you over the cap if you are near the cap any way. Like, if hit and expertise are so important, it would normally go to say 7.41% (see below) and invest in other stats. But with the option checked, it will instead put you up to say 7.68% before investing in other stats (just bogus numbers as example).

So if it somehow values all other stats together (stamina, mastery, haste, whatever) higher than putting more into expertise, the option is not going to help you. You would need to drastically modify the weights to get it to work. I noticed this myself when it was putting stamina in absolutely everything. With 3 gems I could easily cap expertise, but it just didn't decide to do it.

In general, with the current weights, I observed it will almost never really gem for expertise, except when the socket bonus is really good it will put in a hybrid gem (with stamina), and will only reforge into expertise.

Nova wrote:When selecting my Retribution spec, which is over Hit and Expertise cap, when I click on optimize, it puts me well below both caps, which together add many chances to miss hits.


Did you check the "Force hit/expertise cap" options? Normally AMR puts you a little below cap because points over the cap are 100% wasted, so the algorithm thinks is better to put you slightly under the cap instead ("to make all points counter") and invest what's left into other stats.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:10 am

pbean wrote:I think the force option would only put you over the cap if you are near the cap any way. Like, if hit and expertise are so important, it would normally go to say 7.41% (see below) and invest in other stats. But with the option checked, it will instead put you up to say 7.68% before investing in other stats (just bogus numbers as example).


Yeah, this would be what I would expect, but it does not work that way. I am very close to the cap (a single gem would put me well over it) and AMR still gems out of Exp and Hit, reforging to stay near hit cap and dropping down exp (putting me 3% under cap as a result). And all this for a really limited sta increase. I just dont get it. On one try it even optimized me to a total lower overall score, which I think was meant to be funny :-)
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