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Pet Battles

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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Jabari » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:11 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Ugh. Do not use Death Grip when a flying pet is up in the air, or when you think they might use it and are going first. It switched the active pet out, but the flying type pet stayed stuck flying-status and unhittable until it used the attack again. (A smarter player wouldn't have used it again!)


Ah, I'll add that to my list of bugs I'm about to post. :lol:

[Reflect] does some really odd things with flyers (or tunnelers, etc) as well - I reflect a [Fly], both pets go up in the air, his then hits mine, while I attack but keep the Flying "buff" so he can't hit me anymore.

Amusement: [Reflect] an Armageddon = 2 debuffs on both sides. *laugh*

One other really strange oddity: [Poison Spit] hits everything - it'll hit through a 100% dodge buff, plus it also hit "through" my Reflect (but I sent it back too). Haven't seen if it'll hit through a Block (such as a Moth's Cocoon), and I also haven't checked if it'll hit flyers. As an aside, a rare generic Spider is a pretty decent pet - Poison Spit, Brittle Webbing, and Leech Life make for a really annoying opponent.

Also, [Kick] (or other multi-turn interrupts) stun the opponents pet for that turn if they hit first. (Probably intended, but not on the tooltip.)
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Finkum » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Jabari wrote:
Finkum wrote:Pretty sure this is Working as Intended. Buffs and debuffs with the same name do not stack, they just refresh.


So when my Enhancement Shaman casts a Flame Shock on the boss, and my Elemental buddy does as well, it's just refreshed instead of having 2 DoTs with the same name? :P

(It's a bug, whether the devs want to admit it or not *chuckle*)


That's incredibly specious reasoning. Pet Battles do not work the same way that "regular" combat does (and it's not like there aren't non-stacking debuffs in regular combat either). You might as well take issue with the fact that the pet ability Conflagrate does not work the same way that the warlock ability does. I repeat, not a bug, working as intended.
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:23 am

Jabari wrote:Also, [Kick] (or other multi-turn interrupts) stun the opponents pet for that turn if they hit first. (Probably intended, but not on the tooltip.)

It looks like many buff/debuff/status abilities with are good for the turn they are cast on top of the usual duration if the pet attacks first. This doesn't seem to apply for DoTs and other environment stuff, but does for Survivor, stuns, etc.

Another potential bug: If my Crawdad dies after casting the Whirlpool ability, the status effect remains, and goes off when it should, but deals no damage (it still roots the affected pet).
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Jabari » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:08 am

Finkum wrote:That's incredibly specious reasoning. Pet Battles do not work the same way that "regular" combat does (and it's not like there aren't non-stacking debuffs in regular combat either).

Then please tell me what should happen in this case (my moves only, ignoring the opponent for now):

- Turn 1: Level 25 Fel Flame uses [Flame Breath], leaving a DoT that does 70 damage a turn. This ticks once at end-of-turn, 3 turns remaining.
- Turn 2: Swap to Level 10 Voodoo Figurine. DoT ticks, 2 turns remaining.
- Turn 3: Voodoo Figurine uses [Flame Breath]. The DoT it is supposed to leave does 15 a turn.

Option A: Refresh the Fel Flame's DoT (at 70 a turn, 4 turns remaming)?
Option B: Overwrite the Fel Flame's DoT (at 15 a turn, 4 turns remaining)?
Option C: Don't touch the Fel Flame's DoT as it isn't as strong (70 a turn, 1 turn remaining after it ticks this turn).
Option D: Add a second DoT at 15 a turn for 4 turns, leaving the Fel Flame's alone.

Now if it were a non-damage debuff (i.e., reduce speed by 50%), it should certainly just overwrite the existing one with the new duration. (Note that this is exactly how current WoW mechanics work - imagine that!)

KysenMurrin wrote:It looks like many buff/debuff/status abilities with are good for the turn they are cast on top of the usual duration if the pet attacks first. This doesn't seem to apply for DoTs and other environment stuff, but does for Survivor, stuns, etc.

I think this is fine, actually - they expire at end-of-next-turn regardless. Makes a lot of those types of abilities non-useless, at least (especially [Survival]), though damage+25%-to-stun is really, really good because of it ([Frog Kiss]/[Headbutt]).

KysenMurrin wrote:Another potential bug: If my Crawdad dies after casting the Whirlpool ability, the status effect remains, and goes off when it should, but deals no damage (it still roots the affected pet).

Same as the "nothing works after dying" I posted earlier (weather effects stop working, as well). Interesting that the root still works - I didn't think it would actually. Will have to try with my Water Waveling's Geyser to see if that'll trigger the stun if the Waveling's dead, or maybe an Armageddon...
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:48 pm

Definite bug: Fighting 3 Scorpids in a wild battle. First one applies a poison to my pet. It dies. Other two regularly refresh poison debuff - it never deals another tick of damage.
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:38 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Definite bug: Fighting 3 Scorpids in a wild battle. First one applies a poison to my pet. It dies. Other two regularly refresh poison debuff - it never deals another tick of damage.

This suggests that maybe this is what's happening:
Jabari wrote:Option A: Refresh the Fel Flame's DoT (at 70 a turn, 4 turns remaming)?
but since the original pet that placed the poison died, it's no longer having an effect.
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Finkum » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:10 pm

Jabari wrote:Then please tell me what should happen in this case (my moves only, ignoring the opponent for now):

Option A: Refresh the Fel Flame's DoT (at 70 a turn, 4 turns remaming)?
Option B: Overwrite the Fel Flame's DoT (at 15 a turn, 4 turns remaining)?
Option C: Don't touch the Fel Flame's DoT as it isn't as strong (70 a turn, 1 turn remaining after it ticks this turn).
Option D: Add a second DoT at 15 a turn for 4 turns, leaving the Fel Flame's alone.


All of these options are possible (deliberate) design outcomes. The fact that Blizzard went with option A or B for pet battles and option D for normal combat proves nothing except that there are different rule-sets at works. I get that you find it unintuitive but that doesn't mean it's a bug.

As a point of interest, if we trawl through the history of normal combat all 4 of your options have been implemented at one time or another (although I think we have to go all the way back to Vanilla to see buff/debuff overwriting; ah the good old days of only allowing 1 Renew/Rejuv on the tank!)
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Jabari » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:59 am

Finkum wrote:All of these options are possible (deliberate) design outcomes. The fact that Blizzard went with option A or B for pet battles and option D for normal combat proves nothing except that there are different rule-sets at works. I get that you find it unintuitive but that doesn't mean it's a bug.

As a point of interest, if we trawl through the history of normal combat all 4 of your options have been implemented at one time or another (although I think we have to go all the way back to Vanilla to see buff/debuff overwriting; ah the good old days of only allowing 1 Renew/Rejuv on the tank!)


Heh. Cast Renew, get "A stronger effect is on the target". I remember those days!

All of those can certainly be deliberate design decisions, sure. The only one that makes any sense at all (to this amateur game designer) is D, especially since it's two different "characters" casting something that just happen to have the same name. I could almost understand it if I have two separate Fel Flames and it refreshed duration (but it'd still be wrong :lol: ).

So I guess "bug" might be slightly too strong, but it's still going into that forum until someone says "working as intended", when it'll just go into the suggestions forum instead. :)

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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Finkum » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:40 pm

Jabari wrote:So I guess "bug" might be slightly too strong, but it's still going into that forum until someone says "working as intended", when it'll just go into the suggestions forum instead. :)


While this is only speculation on my part, I think that the reason they implemented buffs/debuffs in this fashion is to 1) encourage variety of team composition, 2) make balance easier and 3) limit the strategic depth of the game.

If, for example, the double-damage-taken debuff stacked then you could end up with a pet dealing 400% damage to an opponent (or more if you also had the appropriate buff or weather condition). Even if you only allowed HoT/DoT attacks to stack, there's e.g. a ticking poison attack that increases opponent damage taken. Siphon Life/Plagued Blood could also be problematic, and so on.
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:09 am

Urrghh.. this much theorycraft in pet battles?

One of these days I'll have to try it. (Only did up to lvl 6 or so on beta, haven't touched it on live).

So...

What are good all-around combos of pets?
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Jabari » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:00 am

Finkum wrote:While this is only speculation on my part, I think that the reason they implemented buffs/debuffs in this fashion is to 1) encourage variety of team composition, 2) make balance easier and 3) limit the strategic depth of the game.

If, for example, the double-damage-taken debuff stacked then you could end up with a pet dealing 400% damage to an opponent (or more if you also had the appropriate buff or weather condition). Even if you only allowed HoT/DoT attacks to stack, there's e.g. a ticking poison attack that increases opponent damage taken. Siphon Life/Plagued Blood could also be problematic, and so on.


Oh, I wouldn't dream of stacking any non-DoT/HoT stuff - speed changes, +/- %damage or the double-damage-taken debuffs need to be overwritten for sure.

Remember that there's a huge penalty for switching pets - you lose a full turn doing that. I think this makes stacking Siphon etc ok. *shrug*

halabar wrote:Urrghh.. this much theorycraft in pet battles?

<snip>

What are good all-around combos of pets?

Not theorycraft, more about game mechanics discussion at the moment. :)

Anyway, you can't really go wrong just taking 3 individual Rares of different types, that have strong attacks (i.e., better than "baseline"), that don't actively sabotage each other. (So no Dark Whelpings [Darkness] interfering with your Aquatic pet's healing, etc).

It helps if your pets have differing attack types (i.e., the Clockwork Gnome's attacks are Elemental, Humanoid, and Mechanical, as opposed to a random moth that has 3 Flying attacks).
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:25 am

Jabari wrote:It helps if your pets have differing attack types (i.e., the Clockwork Gnome's attacks are Elemental, Humanoid, and Mechanical, as opposed to a random moth that has 3 Flying attacks).


Any other specific ones that are strong that way?
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:29 am

Spirit of Competition has Dragon, Magic, Flying, and Elemental options.

Mini-thor is pure Mechanical, but very tanky (high hp plus a mini-revive for being Mechanical.)

Windrider Cub has Beast, Flying and Critter attacks.

Those are the only ones I have any experience with at the moment.
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Astronomic » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:08 am

Not at home so I don't know the damage types off the top of my head, btu netherray fry has 6 different damage types.
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Re: Pet Battles

Postby Jabari » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:05 am

Also, it's perfectly fine to have 2 different attack types and a 3rd "utility" skill (the Shield probably being the best, but strong heals, and 100% dodges (on fast chars) and stuff like that can be very nice too.

Skye1013 wrote:Windrider Cub has Beast, Flying and Critter attacks.


Thing is, the Windrider Cub doesn't have what I'd call a "strong" attack, just normal stuff. *shrug*

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