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AskMrRobot

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:53 pm

My understanding is, from a point value standpoint, to obtain hit/exp caps you want to get them in this order:

1) Reforging
2) Enchants (?)/Gemming
3) Trinkets

The reason you save trinkets for last is due to the higher stamina value compared to secondary stats value.

That being said, afaik, the Brewfest trinket's only real benefit is the stamina (since the on-use is "meh" at best.)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:00 am

Skye1013 wrote:That being said, afaik, the Brewfest trinket's only real benefit is the stamina (since the on-use is "meh" at best.)


They're a stopgag until you can get your hands on a better one, either Valor, DMF or plain old raiding.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nooska » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:02 am

Sagara wrote:a stopgag

Sagara wrote:stopgag

Sagara wrote:gag


You've been spending too much time in the "holy paladin profession" thread.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:12 am

Sticks and stones may break my bones...

I'll leave the rest to you :-p
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:23 am

econ21 wrote:
theckhd wrote:I completely disagree about Stamina being "situational." It is hands-down your best survivability stat, period.


I wonder how you come to this opinion and whether the assessment can be quantified? There was a similar debate about stamina vs mastery at the start of Cata but it was never subject to numerical analysis. iirc, the compromise - e.g. in the gem guide - was to work with the stamina to mastery trade-off we saw in Blizzard's itemisation of gems (was it 1.5?). Now, the trade-off has been halved and you are still favoring it. Of course, Cata mastery may have been twice as good as MoP secondary stats, I don't know.

But would it be interesting to include variations in stamina in the kind of simulations you've made to compare mastery, haste, etc? In your analytic work for Cata weighting stats you excluded stamina and I can see how there is an apples and oranges problem comparing it with TDR type stats. But in the simulations, it might be possible to usefully appraise it. Afterall, there's only a limited variation in stamina we can achieve via gems and trinkets at current gear levels. For the kind of incoming damage you've been simulating, how often would trading that stamina for more haste or mastery or whatever, save you or kill you?


There are a few key differences between now and Cataclysm. First, let's make it clear that Effective Health has generally been the driving force behind tanking since the end of Burning Crusade. Stam stacking in Ulduar/ToC/ICC was the default path, apart from gimmick fights where you wanted a block-capped set (ex: Anub'arak). The name of the game was "survive as much spike as possible."

Cataclysm was supposed to change that, and it did to a point. We worried a lot less about getting 2-shot by bosses. But they failed to make healer mana a real constraint, so we ended up not caring much at all about total damage taken. Which meant that our deaths were generally due to spikes, rather than trickle-down "death by 1000 cuts." It shifted our view from "need to survive 2 boss attacks in a row" to "need to survive 5-6 seconds with minimal healing." And the solution to that problem is still EH.

We stacked mastery instead of stamina for a few reasons in Cataclysm, but the primary one was EH-related. Shaving 30% off of every attack is almost like having ~43% extra health (1/0.7=1.429). So we stacked a lot of mastery because it was, in effect, an EH stat - it made all of our stamina much, much more powerful. And after reaching cap, what did most hard-mode tanks do? Stack more stamina! The fact that mastery was very good for TDR didn't hurt, but it wasn't why we stacked it.

MoP has changed things, but not very much. Healer mana is certainly being stressed in these early raids, but not because of tank throughput. In fact, I'd argue that tank throughput has not stressed healer mana in any encounter released after Icecrown Citadel. A healer who's sole job is "heal the main tank" isn't going to run out of mana unless they're severely undergeared or not playing very well (i.e. not used to the damage patterns on the fight). Or, in the healers' defense, they could be healing a very bad tank that isn't using their mitigation tools effectively.

So we're in pretty much the same state that we were in Cataclysm. We care about spike deaths that occur over 3-5 boss attacks, or 4-10 second windows. There are a few edge cases, of course - heroic Feng on 25-man can hit you twice simultaneously for 200k each, which is 400k burst damage, and he can do this every ~2 seconds, making 3-second windows very dangerous. But in general, we care about spikes, not TDR. Hit and expertise reduce the frequency of spikes. Stamina reduces the magnitude of those spikes with respect to player health. Both are important, but point-for-point Stamina does a better job.

It's value obviously varies based on your situation: when you're undergeared, it's VERY valuable; when you're slightly over-geared, it becomes less valuable. People frequently talk about gearing strategies like "stack stam till you have 'enough' health for the boss," but I think that they're misleading themselves. 'Enough' is nebulous - should it be 2 attacks? 3 attacks? 4? 5? - and I think stamina retains its value fairly well even above 'enough.'

Unfortunately, it's very hard to quantify without building a simulation that re-creates WoW. My simulations don't include stamina at all, because they don't include health at all. They just calculate the distribution of damage output the boss produces over time so we can see how large the spikes get and how much each stat reduces the frequency of those spikes.

If we want to include stamina in those situations, we run into some significant issues:
  1. How much health do we choose as a baseline? This basically depends on how over/under-geared we are for the encounter at hand.
  2. What do we do if the boss kills us during a spike? Do we keep running as usual, or terminate the sim and track this information (i.e. +100 stamina reduced deaths by X, +100 haste reduced deaths by Y, etc.)?
  3. How do we model healing? In the steady-state, your healers are producing more HPS than the DPS the boss is subjecting you to, otherwise you'd die very quickly on every pull. But that healing isn't constant - it comes in discrete chunks (heals/ticks) at a variety of intervals (HoTs, heals with varying cast lengths) and at different magnitudes (having an excess of HoTs on the pull vs. a healer forgetting to heal you vs. a healer dying). This is probably the biggest problem, because there's no one solution. Every tank has a different healing team, manned by different players, who heal differently. No one model can properly encompass how an "average" raid team heals, and it's dubious at best to even define an "average" in that sense.

There are more issues, but even on this short list we've hit one that's been plaguing theorycrafting for years. I remember having discussions about how to model healing as far back as early WotLK, Mel's blogged about it before, and even to this day it's a question that hasn't been settled. If you model a "perfect" healer, the tank almost never dies. So you want to model an "imperfect" healer, because tanks tend to die when someone makes a mistake (healer or tank). But how do you model "bad" play when that sort of play is inherently inconsistent and varies from player to player and encounter to encounter?

As such, we're stuck with some "hand-wavy" (meaning "not rigorous") arguments for how to relate Stamina to other anti-spike stats. I certainly don't feel confident enough to say that I can "prove" Stamina is more valuable than hit or expertise, at least not numerically. I can at best make some good logical arguments why I think it's better, and support that with a limited amount of evidence from logs, experiences, discussions with healers, discussions with other tanks, and so on.

I think it's fairly telling that most tanks in the top 100 have traditionally gemmed for all-out Stamina, because they're going into the fights fairly under-geared and prefer EH over everything else. But even that data point is limited in scope - not all top-tier tanks are theorycrafters, and in general they trust their gut and go with what seems to work. In practice, I think that they could be almost as successful gemming Spirit, because their success hinges far more on their sheer skill than it does on what 5 gems they choose.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:21 pm

I havnt looked at it to closely before, but it seems a few items are missing, or atleast its heroic version.
Cant find will of the emperor heroic chest, or the waist from first boss in HoF heroic.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:20 pm

It seems Mr. Robot posted about the difficulty reaching or maintaining Hit and Expertise caps in various classes:
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2012/11/how- ... -hit-caps/

They even added an option to try to force it out.

... though it still adds horrendous results for us trying to reach and maintain Expertise HARD Cap, which Mr. Robot seems to ignore.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Levantine » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Well that was insulting to read. What about the people that are very much aware of the math behind it and are just ocd about shit like that? Nah jkjk here have this condescending dribble.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Its hardly rocket science to figure out the problem.
Its a program that tries to maximize your gear with the values you put in, to cap isnt always the best for your dps, and it simply isnt programmed to force high enough values where some people want it.
Im like 0.2% hit and 0.2% exp from capping, but i would obviously lose way to much other stats if i went for it, so id rather be below both caps and miss one ability every 10th try :P
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Levantine » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:44 pm

And I get that. Just because I'm ocd as fuck doesn't mean I don't understand math.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:59 pm

Treck wrote:Its hardly rocket science to figure out the problem.
Its a program that tries to maximize your gear with the values you put in, to cap isnt always the best for your dps, and it simply isnt programmed to force high enough values where some people want it.
Im like 0.2% hit and 0.2% exp from capping, but i would obviously lose way to much other stats if i went for it, so id rather be below both caps and miss one ability every 10th try :P


I gave a pretty thorough rebuttal to that on their forums, before the blog post went live.

In short: blindly following a single metric, especially one as tenuous as a "score" created by static stat weights, is not a rigorous model for combat.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:20 am

theckhd wrote:I gave a pretty thorough rebuttal to that on their forums, before the blog post went live.

In short: blindly following a single metric, especially one as tenuous as a "score" created by static stat weights, is not a rigorous model for combat.

Yeah I've read your post before posting here. I agree with what you say. DPS classes get more benefit from using a tool like Ask Mr. Robot. The same way a Recount results posting tells more about the DPS than the healers or tanks.

But I think it's still bugged, or their reasoning is flawed. The thing is that it still aims WAY too far below the Expertise Hard Cap. Like 5-6% (using default Stat Weights), and that could mean a lot of missed Holy Power generators, which in turn lead to less Shield of the Righteous coverage. You can see an example using my profile here. I'm over Hit and Expertise Caps, but when using their "optimizer", it puts me far below Expertise Hard Cap, all for a 1% increase in the Overall Score.

The "force caps" option doesn't even take into account the 15% Expertise Hard Cap. I'm not sure about posting in their forums to point this, but...
Last edited by Nova on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:22 am

I read the blog post but I do not buy it. In the end, its about reliability. If I need to plan for a phase where I reliably need holy power because I know a tank swap and some serious damage is coming, I need my attacks to hit. Especially when my success is multiplied by my Holy Avenger talent.

Also, I disagree to the statement of the blog post about probabilities for "missing in the second that matters". If I have say a 1/400 chance to miss, this is also the chance that my "attack that matters" misses, not something multiplied by the fight duration - Mr Robot is definitely off in his stochastical analysis.

For me this means trying to cap hit and expertise, because I want to be in control of my survival, and then equipping STA trinkets and gemming sta (thanks Theck) while rforging what is left into haste. For me at least, this feels right.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:34 am

Yeah me too.
I'm trying to use the tool to optimize my stats via reforging to gem for Stamina, but I can't get the tool to work out for me.
The ReforgeLite Addon has been giving me better results, but it doesn't take gems into consideration for optimization.

BTW... Now it recommends Collossus to me? And I though it was sub-optimal...
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:57 am

It does seem alot of people are getting weird results from AMR in regards to the default weights. If you are having issues were you are not getting hit/exp cap (or very close to them) then just start incrimenting the stamina weight down some. I have found that with default weights I am getting way below the Exp cap but when I bring the stam weight down to 2.53 it is then willing to start gemming some full exp and gets me within .1% of the cap. Lately I have even been over on hit some.

I have not had a chance to mess with the force caps. Mostly because I really don't have any need to because simply adjusting my weights gets me very very close. If I find that I am considerably off (more than 1/2 a percent) then I might give the force option a go.
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