When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

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When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:38 pm

I'm raiding with another paladin tank. He spams Word of Glory and only rarely uses Shield of the Righteous.

I assume there's a cutoff point somewhere that has ShoR mitigating more damage than WoG heals. When is that? I've been trying to find some math on that but I can't find a thread comparing the two.
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby Gab » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:55 pm

I don't have any exact numbers. But it's not going to be beneficial to "rarely use Shield of the Righteous".

I would be willing to bet that the majority of his WoG healing is turning into overhealing either directly or because he just turned healer hots/heals into overhealing.

As long as the boss isn't casting/channeling/rping ShoR is going to be a better choice 95% of the time, and even in those situations because of the DPS that ShoR contributes. WoG is best used with high Bastion stacks after a big attack such as Elegon's breath or a protector's anhilation for example or when you are dangerously low on health (the next attack will kill you).

By spamming WoG he is losing the benefits of Bastion as well as the damage output, which is considerable, of ShoR. He is also drastically increasing his damage intake and his chances of death through spikes by not utilizing the ShoR buff. Healers can't see that you are about to WoG but they will definitely notice you taking smoother (and less) damage from proper ShoR use.
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby theothersteve7 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:26 am

That's roughly the sentiment I expressed. But his healing done, minus over healing, is substantially higher than the difference between my damage taken and his. The spikiness seems to be lost in the chaos of the raid, and he looks better than me on the meters if you look at both of those.

He's a smart guy and I'm honestly starting to wonder if there's a bit of a bandwagon thing going on around here. I guess, in either case, tank deaths aren't causing our wipes anyway.
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby Gab » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:04 am

theothersteve7 wrote:That's roughly the sentiment I expressed. But his healing done, minus over healing, is substantially higher than the difference between my damage taken and his. The spikiness seems to be lost in the chaos of the raid, and he looks better than me on the meters if you look at both of those.


His healing and over healing is less than half of the picture.

The thing you need to also look at is your healers. What kind of heals are being used on him vs what kinds of heals are being used on you and what are their over heal numbers. With WoG being instant cast and off the GCD it's likely he is sniping a lot of heals from the healers.

Why risk over healing or turning healer heals into overhealing when you can simply reduce your damage intake?

Again by using WoG you are losing A LOT of DPS; depending on the encounter this could be up to 20% of your damage done which is a huge trade off. You are also losing all benefits of Bastion which is another hefty trade off. He will also be turning a lot of his SoI heals into overhealing.

If you look at heroic Stone Guard you are mitigating huge amounts of melee and bleed damage especially if you are the two dog tank. Gara'jal you are mitigating tons of voodoo damage helping insure voodoos aren't getting gibbed. These are just two quick examples but WoG does basically ZERO to help on either of those. Again in almost every situation ShoR > WoG.

Bandwagon? seriously?

Edit: Is it even possible for Vengeance to be high enough for a 0 bastion WoG to heal for more than a ShoR would reduce? I mean I guess at some point if magic damage were proportionately higher than physical damage in a 20 second vengeance window it might be possible. None of the current T14 fights work like that except maybe Elegon (Breath, aoe ticks, anhilitation). That's also assuming the WoG heal doesn't cause any overhealing either by itself or by turning other healing sources into over heal. Too bad I suck at math...

EDIT 2: That's also not taking into account that at 5 holy power you should be using a finisher regardless of you current health. WoG could end up being purely overheal with no damage contribution where ShoR will still give you some damage reduction, assuming the boss isnt doing something besides melee, and will contribute to your DPS.
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby theothersteve7 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:25 pm

I don't mean to offend. I'm simply questioning whether certain aspects we're taking as common sense are being handled as such because they are being taken as common sense. I want to see some math to back it up and I'm having trouble locating it. I assume you and the community are correct but I can't have a rational discussion with the other tank based on my assumptions.

I would imagine that ShoR is better when the tank is taking large amounts of damage, and WoG spam is only good when tank damage is very low. Now, we aren't a very good guild - I reactivated my account less than three weeks ago - and I have to wonder if there's some merit in his argument on low damage fights. The logs seem to agree with him, but it's difficult to say, and also he rather outgears me.

Edit: Obviously he still hits ShoR when at full health and 5 HP. This isn't especially common.
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby Lastwolf » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:39 am

More often than not, tank deaths are rarely the cause of any particular wipe, mechanics are more likely to get you killed than any rotational decisions, assuming you can maintain aggro. Failure to meet DPS check or slow DPS causing healer mana issues are probably next in the list.

Some things are just hard to quantify into meaningful numbers, well... a meaningful enough number to make the raid leader care, if you die and the other guy lives and you say "but hey take 2.1% less damage overall", generally that wont impress them.

WoG is better than ShoR if your health bar just bit the big one, I was tanking last night and I got spiked down due a combination of my stupidity and bad positioning, I WoG'd, which bought the healers a fraction of time to get me topped, subjectively I could have continued my rotation and rolled the dice but to me it felt safer. Additionally it wouldn't have mattered had I not been a silly moo in the first place.

Ignoring ShoR for Wog entirely seems like a bit of a waste of time, Paladin tank damage is already lower than say a monk, so further nerfing that seems a bit unnecessary. It's totally a chicken-egg scenario, is it better to reduce my damage in the future by 20% or heal for 21% after the fact. Objectively the reduction should always be the right, because that 20% more could have killed you.

In order to prove you're doing it right, you're gonna have to go deep in the logs, work out the frequency of healer spells on each of you and mana spent, then work out the difference in expended healer time and energy. (458 spells on you and 500 on him would hint at him being a mana and time sync for the heal team).

This is assuming equal gear.

You'd need a fight like Will, otherwise your uptime on boss will be different and again, dodging the attacks properly will make way bigger difference than anything else.

The things that dirty the petridish in this experiment are almost endless.
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm

It's actually a fairly simple calculation, if you want to be pedantic about it.

Damage mitigated by SotR: (boss damage in 3s after armor mitigation)*(0.3+mastery%)
Damage healed by WoG: (5538+0.49*SP)*3*1.05*(1+bastion_modifier)

The WoG expression simplifies to about 17.5k+0.77175*AP, times the bastion factor

Let's assume you have ~15% bonus mastery (8% base, 7% from rating) and 140k AP (40k base, 100k from Veng). Then, for SotR to mitigate more damage than WoG heals, the inequality is:

BD*0.45 > (17.5k+0.77175*140k)*(1+BoG)
BD > 277k*(1+BoG)

So if you're spamming WoG (BoG=0), you'd need to take 277k damage from the boss within the 3-second window of SotR to break even. Since that 3-second window should generally cover 2 boss attacks, that's around 137k per attack (ignoring avoidance or blocking for the moment). Most heroic bosses hit for well above this value. Thinking about it in terms of DPS, we're talking about taking 277k/3s or around 93k DPS, which is higher than what we're seeing in current content. Note that your WoL will be lower than that, because it's reporting post-mitigation values (i.e. you're taking ~30% less if you have 30% avoidance, and of course SotR itself will reduce the WoL value by uptime*(0.3+mastery%), or around 15-20%).

Now, why did I say "if you want to be pedantic about it"? Well, because that simplistic analysis isn't the whole story. If a boss hits for 1 million damage after armor mitigation, and my WoG heals for 2 million health (or 3 million, or 10 million for that matter), WoG is superior, right? No, in fact, it isn't, because I can't survive a 1-million point attack. But I can survive 550k, which is what that attack turns out to be after 45% mitigation from SotR.

That's an extreme example, but the point works when scaled down too. SotR smooths your damage intake. It makes the big hits smaller, and easier to heal. WoG doesn't do anything for smoothing. So the tank that's spamming WoG is taking a lot more damage, and worse yet it's much spikier damage. And we know that it's not attrition that kills tanks (i.e., your healer running OOM from healing you), it's spike damage. So the tank spamming WoG is misguided to begin with - they're more concerned with e-peening on healing meters than about making themselves more survivable. And as a result, they're going to go splat more often.

And woe unto the tank that goes with a control strategy and then spams WoG. That's about the worst thing you can do. Gear for damage smoothing, and then toss all of that smoothing down the toilet by spam-healing yourself. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...
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Re: When is it better to WoG than ShoR?

Postby theothersteve7 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:28 pm

OK, cool, I've got a much better perspective on this now.

Firstly, the only fights I could practically use for comparison have particularly low tank physical damage. Secondly, I was dramatically underestimating how awful my gear was - I just found out I was 15 ilvls below him. Finally, he has been gearing "tradtionally" and he started his theorycrafting on that assumption.

Thanks for all the numbers. We tore through some challenge modes last night. :)
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