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Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Darielle » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:57 pm

I thought that's what I said...


No, you said:
"In this fight you don't have a MT, as the tank that starts with 2 lions has it at start, but after that, unless you want to do useless swaps that can only bring the energy up to unwanted dogs, who gets the two is determined by chance."
Aka, don't have one tank keeping 2 dogs all the time; doing that would give unwanted energy to unwanted dogs.

My point (which should be clear in the sentence immediately after, and certainly two sentences after) is that unless you're literally sitting around letting them get energy by waiting around "in the middle of taunting", you should get no more additional energy by keeping 2 dogs on the same tank, and it gives you many benefits to take advantage of.

I don't see why you wouldnt want to break the chains when jasper petrify comes.


On the other hand, aside from the bit of freedom until new chains are done, there isn't anything chains really prevents you from doing. Even on Heroic, the chains that are alreayd active can go play with tiles, so there's no downside to not breaking chains. If everyone's basically in melee range (or close to each other), they're not hampered in any way by being chained, and they have no real to break them.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:53 pm

Worldie wrote:
Hespherus wrote:
Worldie wrote:Jade is a occasional raidwide aoe which is non avoidable.

Just a small error.

Pff I'm too used to italian client :D

My fault too, since I listed Jade as chains and Jasper as ???.

As for the chains, are they usually close enough to melee that cleaves will be killing them anyway?
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Darielle » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:34 pm

As for the chains, are they usually close enough to melee that cleaves will be killing them anyway?


?

You don't damage chains. THe only way to break them is to be apart for 15 seconds (doesn't have to be done at once) and force the pulses.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:48 pm

Ah, I see. I was thinking it was like the first boss in BRC.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby degre » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:02 am

Darielle wrote:
I thought that's what I said...


No, you said:
"In this fight you don't have a MT, as the tank that starts with 2 lions has it at start, but after that, unless you want to do useless swaps that can only bring the energy up to unwanted dogs, who gets the two is determined by chance."
Aka, don't have one tank keeping 2 dogs all the time; doing that would give unwanted energy to unwanted dogs.

My point (which should be clear in the sentence immediately after, and certainly two sentences after) is that unless you're literally sitting around letting them get energy by waiting around "in the middle of taunting", you should get no more additional energy by keeping 2 dogs on the same tank, and it gives you many benefits to take advantage of.

I have clearly said that unless you do additional and useless swaps to allow the same tank to always have 2 dogs, the tank that gets to keep two dogs is determined by chance. Anything to say against that?
And please, don't give to my words meaning that is not there.

The only way to never have the dogs getting energy when they're not active is to have a fourth tank, and in 25m normal you just don't do it, it's a waste.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Ironshaft » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:38 am

Our first time in there last night as a guild, 18 attempts in just over 2 hours. We had Jasper, Cobalt and Amethyst (ugh) up. A few observations.

1. 95% of the deaths we suffered for the night were either:

A. Jasper Chains -- OR --

B. Misuse of the Overload mechanic and having 2 Overloads happening within 10 seconds of each other.

2. We only got Petrified once during 18 attempts. Our tanks did a good job on juggling the dogs.

3. This fight is a loot pinata without Jasper (IMO).

4. As a healer, I was in one of three states for the fight:

A. Not chained. Easy street with no real problems. Other mechanics were easy to avoid.

B. Chained to other healer/ranged. Very managable and able to maneuver as required.

C. Chained to melee = death. Way too much going on in melee range (we only had 1 melee DPS) with too much movement. This fight is unforgiving with Jasper up and melee DPS.

5. Cobalt bombs were best dealt with by having either myself (Pally healer) or our Shaman healer just break them and then dispel their root. Damage on a plate/mail wearer seemed much lighter than on others. I don't think that damage was physical but it seemed much lighter. Once we figured out to get rid of the Colbalt in the middle of the room, there was more than enough room to avoid the purple puddles of death and things because much easier. We were doing a slot kite from front (where Guard starts) to back (stairs) and were able to slow that way down once we started popping blue crysals.

6. None of our Main Spec tanks could come so we had two Off-Spec tanks who were undergeared (450ish) and their survivability was just fine. We also had two DPS whom were not geared well and were doing sub-par DPS. However, our first pull of the night got the Guard down only 30% and our last pull of the night hit the Enrage (8:15 sec) with the Guard at 10% so we saw very good progress for the night. Some gear upgrades this week, having a Main Spec tank available, and possibly a more forgiving Guard combo next week and we will be on to Feng.

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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Astronomic » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:48 am

Ironshaft wrote: C. Chained to melee = death. Way too much going on in melee range (we only had 1 melee DPS) with too much movement. This fight is unforgiving with Jasper up and melee DPS.


This is why I love being a resto druid on this fight. The only move I have where I need to sit still for some time is tranquility.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Sagara » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:51 am

Tell me about it. Add to that our built-in anti-snare, and Symbiose a Hunter for Deterrence and Cobalt goes from nuisance to "meh"
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Darielle » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:45 pm

I have clearly said that unless you do additional and useless swaps to allow the same tank to always have 2 dogs, the tank that gets to keep two dogs is determined by chance. Anything to say against that?
And please, don't give to my words meaning that is not there.


Cf:
"If it's Ame on one tank, Jade and Jasper on the other and Ame gets empowered, taunting Ame into the second tank and taunting Jade onto the first atnk should result in no more energy than taunting Jasper into Ame, unless your taunts are badly synced and you're just sitting there for 5 seconds with the wrong dog on the wrong person.

Having one centralised location gives you the ability to work off a centralised spot for melee, aoe heals, allows you to make a choice on which mechanic you want fully functioning (e.g. Battle Insight is basically useless if you're tanking the lone dog), optimise survival based on whichever tank's survival scales best with multiple mobs (crits giving Rage, or Revenge procs, or SoI procs gamed from HotR, etc.)"

C. Chained to melee = death. Way too much going on in melee range (we only had 1 melee DPS) with too much movement. This fight is unforgiving with Jasper up and melee DPS.


Jasper Chains allows for a 10 yard leeway, so almost nothing that actually affects melee should affect you. If a Mine spawns on top of melee, or a pool spawns directly on you, then you'd have to move, but the latter would have happened regardless of where you are, and unless the tank is pretty much sprinting across the room in circles, you should be well in range to be able to be within 10 yards of the melee, not have to move except for once every 30 seconds to a minute unless you get a pool or Chains dropped on your head.
Last edited by Darielle on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Squishybrick » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:01 am

Just an update on my previous post.

The one remaining thing that had acted as a barrier to progression on this for us was that in my raid group I was the only one looking at the energy of the dogs and calling out switches etc. Due in part to the dps/hps (yay insight/battle healer....) I was putting out the raid also wanted to have two dogs on me as much as possible.

With two dogs on me, I just found I was having a hard time keeping track of my survival cooldowns, rotation etc and all the dogs at once. Without someone else helping me on the timing of the taunts, we kept running into the same double explosion problems.

Ideally the other tank would have been helping me keep track of the timing etc, but the way we got around the problem was to keep two dogs on the other tank and only one on me. This way it was easier for me to keep track of the timing, and the other tank's job was simplified because all he had to do was taunt the one off me after I called out in vent for the swap.

I know there's other ways to do it, but this way the melee didn't have to run around like headless chickens and the tank's jobs were made easier. The less that can go wrong, the less will go wrong :)

As a note: /target jade for a macro on this fight is a really bad idea lol.. Took a couple of attempts to realize I was targeting our monk's jade statue.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby Beelgers » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:22 pm

For what it is worth, I only really skimmed through so forgive me if I missed this being mentioned...

Our guild had a some difficulty with this until we decided to just tank all 3 together. You can't do this immediately however, since they would all blow at once and healers wouldn't keep up. What we do is just have the "OT" hold one dog out until the first one blows. Then the OT just pulls the dog in to the other group and the "MT" takes all 3. This way the energy on all three starts staggered and should remain staggered (hit raid walls if two are fairly close).

We then just kite around the room leaving the 'fire' in our wake as one big group. This way we are able to have dps cleave all 3 and don't have to over-complicate the taunting. The only mechanic we really deal with at all is blowing up the cobalt mines whenever cobalt is overloading (since the room fills up fast). This is of course just normal mode, but we went from having a lot of trouble to no trouble at all with this method - just make sure you have two good healers. Kind of mindless, but works really well.

Hope this helps someone having trouble with the normal method!

TLDR - start separated until first 'explosion' then just tank all three together.
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Re: Mysticknight's Stone Guards Guide

Postby PsiVen » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:21 am

10M Jasper Chains were nerfed in the past few days, so it's actually possible to break them without getting new chains immediately. I think we actually made things much more painful than necessary by constantly breaking chains when they were so rapidly re-applied, but now it seems like a good idea to try and keep them cleared during Jasper Petrification.

That's an interesting zerg strat -- one tank, two healers, 7 DPS one of which can tank temporarily at the start? I don't think it is necessarily the easier route, especially for your healers. It won't work on Heroic as getting the wrong Overload is much less forgiving, and you can't really rush through the fight as much because you have to go back and build more tile stacks.
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