AskMrRobot

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:26 am

Stamina is definitely good, and numerically that setup works out to be superior. However, it really depends. In your case, I'd say it probably is. Your gear level is low enough that it can't reach exp cap through reforging, so you'd have to sacrifice stamina in gem slots to make up the difference. But low gear levels is where stamina shines the most, IMO, so I'd probably stick with the stamina. 30k more health is nothing to sneeze at.

If you drop the stamina weight to 2.65 though, it doesn't suggest any changes and leaves you at exp hard cap.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:53 am

I still don't get how AskMrRobot works.

This is my current profile. Using the PvE Control Haste Setup, it finally help me reach Hit Cap, but it reforges out of Expertise Hard Cap. Losing like 6% Expertise is a no-no using the control setup.

I cannot edit the value for Expertise Hard Cap in the custom weights sections. If I put 2.65 value for Stamina, it doesn't get me over Hit Cap.

What am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance.

PS: Just read your previous post, thanks for the info. It seems AskMrRobot indeed has some troubles for caps...
Last edited by Nova on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:59 am

Multiply both Exp, Hit and Stamina values by the same amount, ignore the rest.
If you want to force the cap all the way, go for an entire factor (x 10)

EDIT: it doesn't seem to move from Exp at all, apart from the enchant on the gloves. Those you can flat-out force in the item selection screen.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:37 am

I've had pretty good luck trying:
Stam: 8
Hit: 6
Exp: 5.99
Mast/Haste: 1 and 0.9 depending on preference

That seems to help nudge it towards "always over-capping." It'll also have ripple effects on gem slots (ex: it'll pretty much ONLY use Stam, Hit/Stam, and Exp/Stam gems - no haste/Stam or anything else).
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:29 am

theckhd wrote:I've had pretty good luck trying:
Stam: 8
Hit: 6
Exp: 5.99
Mast/Haste: 1 and 0.9 depending on preference

That seems to help nudge it towards "always over-capping." It'll also have ripple effects on gem slots (ex: it'll pretty much ONLY use Stam, Hit/Stam, and Exp/Stam gems - no haste/Stam or anything else).

Even with those settings, it reduces my Expertise around 5,7 %. And being that I have like 14.71% Expertise with my "manual" reforging, I'm pretty close to the hard cap, which is necessary for proper control.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:04 am

I don't know what you're talking about. I put those custom weights into AMR with your profile loaded and get 7.9% hit and 12.79% exp. And an additional +2772 stamina. Bumping the stam weight down to 7 pushes you up to 15.04% exp, but drops the stamina increase to +1733.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am

Why it puts me in 9.39% expertise then? Dunno :(

Edit: Playing around the "soft cap" weight for Expertise helps me get closer to the 15% cap there... I'm so confused.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:26 pm

If you locked in some enchants/gems earlier, make sure you go through and unlock them, or it might be altering your results.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:33 pm

Nova wrote:Why it puts me in 9.39% expertise then? Dunno :(

Edit: Playing around the "soft cap" weight for Expertise helps me get closer to the 15% cap there... I'm so confused.

You should set the "soft cap" weight to be the same as the stat weight you choose for exp up to soft cap. I.e. if you set it to 5.9 below soft cap, you should also set it to 5.9 above soft cap.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:56 am

Hi again guys. I've obtained some gear yesterday, and I was looking to once again optimize my performance:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia

(Note: I've also aquired a Relic of Niuzao, I don't know wheter to use it or not)

Once again I'm having difficulties forcing Mr. Robot to leave me at hit/exp cap and get some Stamina.

I'm locking my neck reforge because I'm using it for Ret as well.
Stats weights I'm using:
8 Stamina
6 Expertise (Soft cap 6)
6 Hit
1 Haste
0.9 Mastery
0.4 Parry
0.3 Dodge

This puts me above Hit Cap and Expertise Hard Cap, and would return a +18000 health wich is nice.

Question: Is it really that necessary to reach Expertise Hard Cap? Last night I got into an argument with a fellow raider, telling me that the world's most successful raiders are only soft-capping Expertise and barely so, and I just shouldn't aim to Hard-cap with low-level gear. I've read Theck's blog about it, and the conclussions are neat, but I'm not sure if it's playing a big improvement (although the Holy Power income is looking very neat).

Any suggesstions? Thanks a lot in advance for all the help.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:17 am

I would say, hitting exp hardcap is good to reach, but hard to unless you have a few really strong exp parts.
With a little more gear you dont have to reforge into hit at all, that gives you a lot more expertise.
And yes, you should use Relic of Niuzao, it kicks the crap out of the other trinkets, especially the brewfest one, and you wont really replace it.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:27 am

Having the hit and expertise caps is really all about generating holy power. We want to be able to consistently generate holy power so we can keep as much uptime as possible on our SotR. This is our best ability for smoothing out damage and thus preventing many of your potential death spikes that can hit.

I am not saying there aren't other options by any means but for those that tend to trust numbers over anything else Theck has given us those numbers and proven his information through simulations. We do all have to realize that a sim is simply that and not real world but the kind of breaks we see mostly in sim work relates to output of damage and not intake of damage.

With all that said theorycraft is still theorcraft and in real world situations some things will work better. Also note that if you look at the very tip top of the best in the world you can expect to see some variation from what works best for the "majority" and what works for them. They are pushing a very very fine edge and will make sacrifices and even attempt some things that may go considerably against the grain to meet some goal that they have to deal with. We are also still very early in the expansion and things are in all reality I think being still flushed out. Right now the idea of hard capping hit and expertise then building up your stamina pool is very important, this could and likely will change as time goes on and gear changes but for now it is the best recommendation that I think anyone in the paladin community can make right now based on what we have seen from theorycrafting and from real world experience.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby econ21 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:05 am

theckhd wrote:I completely disagree about Stamina being "situational." It is hands-down your best survivability stat, period.


I wonder how you come to this opinion and whether the assessment can be quantified? There was a similar debate about stamina vs mastery at the start of Cata but it was never subject to numerical analysis. iirc, the compromise - e.g. in the gem guide - was to work with the stamina to mastery trade-off we saw in Blizzard's itemisation of gems (was it 1.5?). Now, the trade-off has been halved and you are still favoring it. Of course, Cata mastery may have been twice as good as MoP secondary stats, I don't know.

But would it be interesting to include variations in stamina in the kind of simulations you've made to compare mastery, haste, etc? In your analytic work for Cata weighting stats you excluded stamina and I can see how there is an apples and oranges problem comparing it with TDR type stats. But in the simulations, it might be possible to usefully appraise it. Afterall, there's only a limited variation in stamina we can achieve via gems and trinkets at current gear levels. For the kind of incoming damage you've been simulating, how often would trading that stamina for more haste or mastery or whatever, save you or kill you?
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:46 pm

I believe stamina has always been king, simply because the more hp you have, the longer your healers have to heal you up. That being said, to help smooth out the damage, we were aiming for full CTC, which is no longer possible with how block is on a secondary roll. Ideally, if you can cap out hit/exp with reforges alone, then you'd want stamina in all gem slots (barring exceptional stam socket bonuses that would warrant a hybrid haste or mastery gem.)

I'll let theck (or the other number crunchers) refute the above, but that's how I understand it.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Paxen » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:35 am

What about the Ghost Iron Dragonling? It brings a total of 1800 points of secondary stats, which is pretty nice. If the choice is between that and the Brewfest trinket, does stamina trinkets still win?

What if we're talking challenge modes, and everything is normalized (down) to 463?
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