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Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:07 am

Treck wrote:I know the original post puts HoW first in the prio sub 20% for damage, but coupled with HA it also generates Holy power, so nomatter what it should be no1 ability during HA uptime?

You can only use HoW sub-20% anyway, so that would be redundant. I expect that bug to be fixed by 5.1 in any event.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:11 pm

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I'm ok with that -- though like I said, I'd prefer passive hit/exp against NPCs to compensate for how valuable hit/exp are...


I actually think that if this AM thing survives the grand experiment, this approach will be good, preferably in combination with making vengence less dumb, something like a passive for tank specs only that gives X% hit, Y% expertise and Z% of your stamina (or whatever) as attack power against NPCs.

While we're at it... let's remove int plate/mail/leather and have those classes scale off str/agi, and have healers auto-convert hit into spirit (instead of the other way around for dps/heal hybrids.) Thereby reducing the gear needed to Int Cloth, Agi Leather/Mail, Str Plate. Everyone "fights" with everyone else in their respective armor types, with secondary stats being more or less ideal depending on spec.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby propal » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:46 am

Is it possible to simulate the benefits of going for 4set tier. wether we go for 4set ret, or 4set prot?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:18 am

The simulations already include the protection 4-set bonus. It's definitely possible to simulate 4 set Ret, I just don't have code written for it (yet). Either way, I wouldn't advise using it anyway. The prot 2-piece is amazing, and the 4-piece is rather good too. Ret's 2-piece is useless and the 4-piece isn't really that impressive.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Raive » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:12 am

Was wondering if camping for Kafa Press http://www.wowhead.com/item=86125 would be worthwhile or not?

Would the 4000 Haste beat out str/armor pots for certain fights? Or am I better off just sticking with my prepot str and armor pot for heavy damage phases?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:28 am

Isnt kafa just good for kunlai summit?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Nooska » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:20 pm

Kafa, yes, the kafa press, no.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:22 pm

d'oh~!
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Egtheridon » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:45 pm

theckhd wrote:The simulations already include the protection 4-set bonus. It's definitely possible to simulate 4 set Ret, I just don't have code written for it (yet). Either way, I wouldn't advise using it anyway. The prot 2-piece is amazing, and the 4-piece is rather good too. Ret's 2-piece is useless and the 4-piece isn't really that impressive.


I wasn't too impressed with the two set only because personally I tend to save ardent defender for times when i'm getting close to death. I think an added benefit of using the ret set is actually the better itemization for the pieces, the gloves would be wasted with crit but if you go helm/gloves/legs/shoulders, its everything we want from a control standpoint in terms of stats. With sanctified wrath and ret 4pc, your looking at a little over 30 percent uptime of the sanctified wrath bonus plus the added damage/healing that is inherent in avenging wrath.

Not including that seal of insight heals, get 20 percent bonus from avenging wrath then get another 20 percent bonus from the sanctified wrath, tested on training dummy, 4715 normal, 5658 avenging wrath, 6790 Sanc. Wrath. In raids considering how much seal of insight is healing for it seems very powerful no including the judgement reduction on cast time. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to adjust sacred shield.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Jaitee » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:03 pm

Raive wrote:Was wondering if camping for Kafa Press http://www.wowhead.com/item=86125 would be worthwhile or not?

Would the 4000 Haste beat out str/armor pots for certain fights? Or am I better off just sticking with my prepot str and armor pot for heavy damage phases?


i got that myself and have been using it a lot im not sure if it beats out strength pots for dps but timing it with holy avenger and bloodlust drops my crusader strike down too under a 3 second CD letting me build up a pretty long SotR buff! its also free so can save you a nice chunk of gold one thing to remember though is the 10 minute CD means you wont get too use it every attempt and baring extremely long fights prepotting with it will make it unavailable for the rest of the fight
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:32 pm

Egtheridon wrote:[I wasn't too impressed with the two set only because personally I tend to save ardent defender for times when i'm getting close to death.

Which, if you're doing heroics, is "all the damn time." Having more availability on our cheesiest "I Win" button is always good. I think Ardent Defender is one of those skills that is grossly undervalued by novice tanks.

Egtheridon wrote:I think an added benefit of using the ret set is actually the better itemization for the pieces, the gloves would be wasted with crit but if you go helm/gloves/legs/shoulders, its everything we want from a control standpoint in terms of stats. With sanctified wrath and ret 4pc, your looking at a little over 30 percent uptime of the sanctified wrath bonus plus the added damage/healing that is inherent in avenging wrath.

I still think that Holy Avenger is a better cooldown than Sanctified Wrath, even with the ret 4-piece. I wouldn't give up 10% SotR mitigation and IWinButton++ for better access to an inferior cooldown.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Egtheridon » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:20 pm

Even in heroics I didn't feel that pressed in terms of damage. Regardless I think there are other factors at play which is pushing sanctified wrath and even divine purpose ahead of holy avenger, one major one is haste, both those abilities will become stronger with more haste, primarily from more holy power generation and also in sanctified wraths case more Seal of Insight procs. Currently other than Sacred Shield our biggest heals are from Seal of Insight, the more Seal of Insight procs we get the more healing we are doing, while Holy Avenger is strong for 18 seconds, a 40 percent increase in Seal of Insight for 30 seconds, on a 1 minute 25 second cooldown, not including large levels of haste will increase our self healing significantly.

This does not include the increase in sotr uptime from the reduced cast time of judgement. Just looking at my logs on Stone Guard i'm at 58 percent uptime of sotr i've stacked haste pretty significantly (i'm using DP currently), and I'm following your Advice on Sacred Shield for next week since my sacred shield is down to 4.3sec per proc(should have def been doing this earlier). As our haste increases to higher levels the amount of healing seal of insight will do will also start to increase and should become a higher part of our total. While I still disagree the importance of ardent defender even in my limited heroic experience so far, I think with haste scaling Sanctified wrath with ret 4pc and divine purpose can't be completely ignored and I actually think if we don't look from a purely mitigation standpoint but from a self HPS standpoint it shows a lot of strength.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:45 pm

I think you're giving SW more credit than it deserves. Yes, 40% increase in SoI healing is nice, no doubt, but the extra 40% is going to be much less efficient because more of it will be overheal. The large amounts of haste are a red herring here - it's still only a 40% increase, and again, there's a natural diminishing returns on that self-healing due to overheal.

You're also ignoring the fact that HA does scale with haste. It's not 18 seconds of immunity, it's ~25-30 seconds, and that value increases with haste linearly due to Sanctity of Battle.

The SotR uptime increase due to Judgment's reduced cooldown is calculated in the talent comparison already. During the effect, the uptime is about 12% higher than when it's not active. That's not going to change any with haste. The time-averaged uptime will go up according to the increased uptime: instead of 20 seconds every 180 seconds (11.1% uptime), we'll have 30 seconds every 95 seconds (31.6% uptime). Thus, our time averaged uptime will go up accordingly; instead of a ~4% increase, we should see 4*31.6/11.1=11.4% increase, putting it at about 50.9% uptime. Which, coincidentally, is still worse than DP, and only a few percent ahead of HA. And note that all of these scale roughly the same way with haste, so the amount of haste you're packing doesn't have a large effect on this.

I won't argue that the ret 4-piece isn't interesting or powerful. It single-handedly makes Sanctified Wrath a contender rather than a distant third. But it doesn't do enough to make it clearly superior to HA in any obvious way. HA is essentially like having GAnK up for 25-30 seconds every 2 minutes, or 25% of the time, because it guarantees 100% uptime on SotR. SW can't come close - it'll give you about 50% uptime, and with careful timing you can probably use that to your advantage on bosses that don't have a 1.5-second swing timer (though, those bosses arguably don't pose a serious melee threat either). But it's just not as good a cooldown as HA.

I would absolutely rather have HA every 2 minutes than SW every 1.5 minutes, which is the relevant comparison here. The haste/SoI/etc. discussion is completely irrelevant to the question of whether 4-piece is attractive.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Egtheridon » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:25 am

Well looking at the PTR it looks like nerfs are coming down on it anyway, I appreciate the the reply it was very enlightening for me. Ideally in the long run having both sets would be nice to switch between a high dps with the ret set and a more survivability set with the prot set. I will probably go ret first personally for the dps gains since my raid is lacking in the dps rather than the healing even with two healing :(. I will probably move over to HA on more encounters to get used to it, although DP is pretty fun lol.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - MoP/5.x

Postby Jaitee » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:30 pm

theckhd wrote:
You're also ignoring the fact that HA does scale with haste. It's not 18 seconds of immunity, it's ~25-30 seconds, and that value increases with haste linearly due to Sanctity of Battle.


wouldn't its scaling be non linear since every X amount of haste we would get another CS in and every Y another judgment? also do you know how much haste for each is enough to get that extra CS/J in while probably not a thing worth gearing for it might be something worth noting if you are within a few points of that haste break point
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