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Patch 5.1

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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:06 am

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:People aiming for the top ranking do feel like that, and are somewhat justified. A 6 ilvl difference in an item might mean 50 extra dps, now consider a 10 minute fight... *Note: Numbers pulled out of my ass*

I still don't buy the whole elitism/25mans should get better stuff than 10mans but I am willing to give them wanting to have the competitive edge and their gripe at being prevented of getting just that in light of the changes to KR, CN and TW.


This may show my noob, but wouldn't this throw a serious monkeywrench in the balance of the world-first races when 5.1 hits? Though I guess blizz doesn't really care much about that based on some of the release time stuff.


Oh yeah, if it's not cleared before 5.1, the rage will be quite entertaining.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:Yeah it would.

And I've said it before that if Blizz goes with the Separate but Equal regarding KR, CN and TW and their loot, I would not be surprised if most raiding progress websites disavow all asian guilds from world first records due to performance enhancing loot =P


PEL! I like it!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:16 am

halabar wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Yeah it would.

And I've said it before that if Blizz goes with the Separate but Equal regarding KR, CN and TW and their loot, I would not be surprised if most raiding progress websites disavow all asian guilds from world first records due to performance enhancing loot =P


PEL! I like it!


OOO - I can see the stories of raid leaders pushing PEL's to raiders. The scandal! It'll be glorious!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:17 am

Don't forget your RAIDSTRONG bracelets!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mozen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:20 pm

http://www.battlenet.com.cn/wow/zh/foru ... 117?page=9 (Simplified Chinese)

TRANSLATION (by me):

After 5.1, you can upgrade your gear by spending valor points. Once the 10-man and 25-man lockouts are separated, 25-man drops will be equivalent to the gear you get when you upgrade your 10-man drops by spending valor points once. It can be thought of as rewarding extra valor points to players participating in a higher difficulty raid.

10-man drops can still be upgraded to 25-man level by spending valor points.

TRANSLATION ENDS

Later on in the thread, the blue poster confirms that 25-man normal drops can also be upgraded.

It is unclear how many times we can upgrade a piece of gear, so we can't say whether 10-man content top iLv gear will be equal to 25-man content in the end, or whether 25-man gear will always end up one upgrade higher.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:24 pm

You know, they did say they were thinking about making 25 man reward more valor. From the wording there it makes me wonder - it's possible that 25 man gear is not actually fully better, but requires less upgrading through valor to "max out"...
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mozen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:28 pm

Yeah, it sounds like they're going towards that direction. 10/25 will ultimately end up with the same gear, but 25-man raiders get a head-start on all the drops, as appropriate to a higher difficulty, so they get there faster.

This would quench a lot of complaints from 10-man raiders. Players would also feel much less compelled to raid 25-man if they really only like to raid 10-man.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:53 pm

But even if the goal is the same at the end, having separate lockouts and separate gear means two things

a)they acquire valor faster, even if they're limited by the total and weekly cap
b)they need less valor to upgrade because 25man is ahead by one step of 10man gear

So, PEL is still in effect!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:59 pm

Yeah, the un-shared lockout makes the whole system fall apart.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:41 pm

The biggest thing that I will point to in 10m raiding that just can't be replicated in 25m raiding is the impact that a death can have on success or failure. when someone dies in 10m, that's a pretty huge blow. Lose a healer in 10m, and it's probably over. Lose a DPS, and you risk not beating an enrage timer. Losing a tank is harder to quantify. I might say that due to the way that 25m damage is managed VS 10m damage, losing a tank in 25m could sometimes be more detrimental than 10m. (that is pretty fight dependent though)


These things are already replicated in 25-man, just fyi.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:06 pm

So long as they aren't planning to make drops that are 25m only (Val'anyr) or require 10m to run Heroic when 25m only has to run Normal (Shadowmourne) then I don't mind nearly as much.

Yes, I realize they've made obtaining Legendary items for this xpac completely different (almost to a "solo" scale with LFR factored in) but that doesn't mean they won't somehow leave 10N out of the loop with something.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby oldboyz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:22 am

i'm very very sad & disapointed with this 10/25 bullshit coming with 5.1...
I'm very very upset after Blizzard to see them re-transform the whole railding focus in a patch... it should have been done right from the start of MOP, or wait the next extention 6.0... this is very very impacting and will be hard to absord

i'm Raid lead from the first MCs run...40peoples (supposed difficulty on 25 management make me smile) and have witness all the impact in guild struct as soon as raid rules change from extension to extension an patch...

differrent id on 10 &25... omfg NONONONO!! all the madness with it should stay in the past...

the consensus 10/25 in Cata and as it is now is very fine for me.
with same loot table, it let everyone really choose wich format the fit better :
-10 for more social fun, less stress and "might be" easier raid management
-25 for the glory, at is it "suppossed" to be more challenging...


PS.
currently, id problem is with heroic (as soon as you start an heroic raid, you are lock with it and can't go later with another heroic raid as well as you can't recruit any good external&available raider to backup your roster.. which is quite a pain in the ass)



ruin my day...



EDIT : my bad.. concernt Korean, not Europ :D end of nightmare
let the emerging asian coutries die in virtual life :shock:
Last edited by oldboyz on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mannstein » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:55 am

oldboyz wrote:i'm very very sad & disapointed with this 10/25 bullshit coming with 5.1...
I'm very very upset after Blizzard to see them re-transform the whole railding focus in a patch... it should have been done right from the start of MOP, or wait the next extention 6.0

(...)
the consensus 10/25 in Cata and as it is now is very fine for me.
with same loot table, it let everyone really choose wich format the fit better :
-10 for more social fun, less stress and "might be" easier raid management
-25 for the glory, at is it "suppossed" to be more challenging...
(...)
ruin my day...

(sorry to snip on the post, but trying to keep the post short)
I'm a 25men raider, i like it and everytime a guild went 10men, i went for greener pastures...

The issue is that despite the fact that a large number of the 25men raiders that i know agree that 10men and 25men are two different horses, the effort\dificulty
vs the award are killing the 25men raids... and that is what i believe is impacting myself.

The issue is simple, Blizzard has 3markets in terms of raiders players:
A) Raiders that are 25 men only (myself)
B) Raiders that are 10 men only (yourself)
C) Raiders that don't care and only want to raid
And now (cata + 5.0) is drainning the C) pool into B) and killing the 25men guild.
Paragon (more vulnerable due to the language) was wakeup call to bliz. (personal opinion)

Don't think this as a "changing the game rules" mid game, think of this as an "emergency law to prevent the extintion of 25men guild".
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:05 am

That might explain reward changes, but not seperating the lockouts. If the valor upgrade system makes up for the gear difference, the lockouts is the only real big issue, and it's totally unnecessary.

And I think "we can't find enough highly-skilled Finnish-speaking raiders" is a little too niche an issue to be directly linked to lack of reward for 25 man versus 10.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby oldboyz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:18 am

why "force" C) pool to go in 25 ?
-may be they are not fan of the military aspect of 25?
-may be they are upset with elitist approach of many 25 raid ? (or they don't have yet the xp for a full raid focus)

and don't think 10m have no recruitment trouble too. 1 missing people in 10 is 10% loss compare to 4% in 25

on my very old serveur, they are now plentful of small guilds, and even when they are not able to raid, they don't merge with other, as the family aspect has took a big aspect of the game
(the only new recruit we made are people migrating from pther serveur)


Darwin is the best refere to decide the place for 10&25

if 25 has to die, let it die..

the less people will go on 25, the more prestigious it will become
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