Patch 5.1

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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby degre » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:28 am

Sorry for snipping your post, just keeping the bits I'm replying to.
Treck wrote:10man and 25man are NOT the same, in any way, even listing 10man and 25man together in the same sort of progress is fucking retarded, they are 2 different sports.
+
If that is the case, why do you care about 10man beeing harder OR easier than 25man? thats like complaining archery is much easier when you are bowling.

To be fair, progress being listed together is the only reason I find annoying that 10men are way easier.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:32 am

To be utterly honest, this whole 10 vs 25 story is stupid from the get-go. Because it implies that what the other guys does is SO important that you're willing to flip-flop on game issues because of it.

Blizzard. Make up your mind, then let this thing drop. Dead. Deader than dead.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:44 am

Treck wrote:How would reducing the ammount of people in a raid fix things?
There are always going to be guilds out there with the "wrong" ammount of people.
People are just saying "change the raidsizes" cause the grass is always greener.

I think 10man and 25man work pretty well together.
10man and 25man are NOT the same, in any way, even listing 10man and 25man together in the same sort of progress is fucking retarded, they are 2 different sports.
Its easy to say that if they would make it all over again, they would do it differently, problem is that you can get away with anything saying that, and it has 0 impact on anything.

Some people say they want 20man cause then its easy with balancing cause its just twice as many as 10man, so you just put x2 on everything right?
But no, its never going to be the same, more people means more complexity in the raid.
It is two different sizes, 2 different games people are playing, stop trying to make them equal and start making them evolve their own way.

Not gonna go into a discussion about 10man vs 25man and what is harder, but just getting together 25people should almost give you a reward.
I honestly liked the ICC approach.
There were 25man for the 25man guilds, and there were 10mans for those who didnt care for the whole "server best" or anything, it was just to kill time and have fun with friends.
I know its bad to generalize, but pretty much everyone I know who plays 10man, plays it cause they enjoy the simplicity of having 10 close friends playing, rather than be in a noisy 25man guild with people you dont really know or care for.
If that is the case, why do you care about 10man beeing harder OR easier than 25man? thats like complaining archery is much easier when you are bowling.


I was a 10m raider, and for a short time, we were top horde 10m guild on server. So, I wanted to respond to this.

I like that 10m and 25m drop the same ilvl. I don't feel like I'm being treated as a second class citizen. Treck is right though, 10m and 25m are just not the same, and moving to 20m will not make it easier to "make them the same". The biggest thing that I will point to in 10m raiding that just can't be replicated in 25m raiding is the impact that a death can have on success or failure. when someone dies in 10m, that's a pretty huge blow. Lose a healer in 10m, and it's probably over. Lose a DPS, and you risk not beating an enrage timer. Losing a tank is harder to quantify. I might say that due to the way that 25m damage is managed VS 10m damage, losing a tank in 25m could sometimes be more detrimental than 10m. (that is pretty fight dependent though)

I don't know if I agree that 25m just means more complexity to the raid. While that can certainly be the case, I believe that OS10 3D showed us that 10m can be downright ridiculous. I will give you that setting up a 25m raid is more complex than setting up a 10m raid. That was one of the things I liked.

I will also say that I agree, one of the appeals of 10m raiding was the fact that I was raiding with 9 people that I knew, that I wanted to raid with. it was smaller, it was more intimate. I didn't have to have rules about who could speak over mumble because of the size of the raid.

I would agree that 25m should have "something" as a reward for being 25 people.

I care about it being harder or easier, because when there is a notable difficulty difference between the two, there is an idea that the easier should somehow be rewarded with inferior items. The solve to that, was making 10 and 25 share a lockout.

I'm even ok with 25m getting more loot because there is 2.5 times as many people. In Cata though, (especially FL and DS with the shared loot drops) it made some things simply non existent for 10m groups. I still want to scream at blizzard over the trinkets in DS. To me, that was the epitome of failed design in Loot for 10m. I like that they do try and make sure that 10m is more difficult than it was at times in the past. I know that it will never be perfect. I know that there will always be times when the balance of difficulty swings one way or another. It's the way fight mechanics work.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:56 am

So we are back to pugging one lockout after running the other with the guild? wonderful...
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:38 am

...and mmo-champ just reported it... I had seen some threads on the us forums, but this will get the ball rolling
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:39 am

Klaudandus wrote:...and mmo-champ just reported it... I had seen some threads on the us forums, but this will get the ball rolling


/popcorn at all the old gripes/hates/biases/elitism/etc that's pouring forth.

Way to go Blizz at setting your playerbase against each other again.

Favorite response now is "This will require me to run the other lockout as well to keep pace on progression".
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:47 am

People aiming for the top ranking do feel like that, and are somewhat justified. A 6 ilvl difference in an item might mean 50 extra dps, now consider a 10 minute fight... *Note: Numbers pulled out of my ass*

I still don't buy the whole elitism/25mans should get better stuff than 10mans but I am willing to give them wanting to have the competitive edge and their gripe at being prevented of getting just that in light of the changes to KR, CN and TW.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:55 am

Can someone clear something up for me on the whole 10/25 man thing?
(this is only slightly tongue in cheek)

If greater reward is deserved for getting more people together, then why to people who are not raid leaders, guild officers, etc. get a chance at that extra loot? From what I hear from pretty much everyone I know who raids, there is one constant in raiding: most folks just show up at the appointed time and do what they are told. (granted some may do more outside, but that's irrelevant to this discussion since that's independant of number of people)
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:56 am

Klaudandus wrote:People aiming for the top ranking do feel like that, and are somewhat justified. A 6 ilvl difference in an item might mean 50 extra dps, now consider a 10 minute fight... *Note: Numbers pulled out of my ass*

I still don't buy the whole elitism/25mans should get better stuff than 10mans but I am willing to give them wanting to have the competitive edge and their gripe at being prevented of getting just that in light of the changes to KR, CN and TW.


This may show my noob, but wouldn't this throw a serious monkeywrench in the balance of the world-first races when 5.1 hits? Though I guess blizz doesn't really care much about that based on some of the release time stuff.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:59 am

Yeah it would.

And I've said it before that if Blizz goes with the Separate but Equal regarding KR, CN and TW and their loot, I would not be surprised if most raiding progress websites disavow all asian guilds from world first records due to performance enhancing loot =P
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:06 am

benebarba wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:People aiming for the top ranking do feel like that, and are somewhat justified. A 6 ilvl difference in an item might mean 50 extra dps, now consider a 10 minute fight... *Note: Numbers pulled out of my ass*

I still don't buy the whole elitism/25mans should get better stuff than 10mans but I am willing to give them wanting to have the competitive edge and their gripe at being prevented of getting just that in light of the changes to KR, CN and TW.


This may show my noob, but wouldn't this throw a serious monkeywrench in the balance of the world-first races when 5.1 hits? Though I guess blizz doesn't really care much about that based on some of the release time stuff.


Oh yeah, if it's not cleared before 5.1, the rage will be quite entertaining.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:Yeah it would.

And I've said it before that if Blizz goes with the Separate but Equal regarding KR, CN and TW and their loot, I would not be surprised if most raiding progress websites disavow all asian guilds from world first records due to performance enhancing loot =P


PEL! I like it!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:16 am

halabar wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Yeah it would.

And I've said it before that if Blizz goes with the Separate but Equal regarding KR, CN and TW and their loot, I would not be surprised if most raiding progress websites disavow all asian guilds from world first records due to performance enhancing loot =P


PEL! I like it!


OOO - I can see the stories of raid leaders pushing PEL's to raiders. The scandal! It'll be glorious!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:17 am

Don't forget your RAIDSTRONG bracelets!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mozen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:20 pm

http://www.battlenet.com.cn/wow/zh/foru ... 117?page=9 (Simplified Chinese)

TRANSLATION (by me):

After 5.1, you can upgrade your gear by spending valor points. Once the 10-man and 25-man lockouts are separated, 25-man drops will be equivalent to the gear you get when you upgrade your 10-man drops by spending valor points once. It can be thought of as rewarding extra valor points to players participating in a higher difficulty raid.

10-man drops can still be upgraded to 25-man level by spending valor points.

TRANSLATION ENDS

Later on in the thread, the blue poster confirms that 25-man normal drops can also be upgraded.

It is unclear how many times we can upgrade a piece of gear, so we can't say whether 10-man content top iLv gear will be equal to 25-man content in the end, or whether 25-man gear will always end up one upgrade higher.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:24 pm

You know, they did say they were thinking about making 25 man reward more valor. From the wording there it makes me wonder - it's possible that 25 man gear is not actually fully better, but requires less upgrading through valor to "max out"...
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mozen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:28 pm

Yeah, it sounds like they're going towards that direction. 10/25 will ultimately end up with the same gear, but 25-man raiders get a head-start on all the drops, as appropriate to a higher difficulty, so they get there faster.

This would quench a lot of complaints from 10-man raiders. Players would also feel much less compelled to raid 25-man if they really only like to raid 10-man.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:53 pm

But even if the goal is the same at the end, having separate lockouts and separate gear means two things

a)they acquire valor faster, even if they're limited by the total and weekly cap
b)they need less valor to upgrade because 25man is ahead by one step of 10man gear

So, PEL is still in effect!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:59 pm

Yeah, the un-shared lockout makes the whole system fall apart.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:41 pm

The biggest thing that I will point to in 10m raiding that just can't be replicated in 25m raiding is the impact that a death can have on success or failure. when someone dies in 10m, that's a pretty huge blow. Lose a healer in 10m, and it's probably over. Lose a DPS, and you risk not beating an enrage timer. Losing a tank is harder to quantify. I might say that due to the way that 25m damage is managed VS 10m damage, losing a tank in 25m could sometimes be more detrimental than 10m. (that is pretty fight dependent though)


These things are already replicated in 25-man, just fyi.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:06 pm

So long as they aren't planning to make drops that are 25m only (Val'anyr) or require 10m to run Heroic when 25m only has to run Normal (Shadowmourne) then I don't mind nearly as much.

Yes, I realize they've made obtaining Legendary items for this xpac completely different (almost to a "solo" scale with LFR factored in) but that doesn't mean they won't somehow leave 10N out of the loop with something.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby oldboyz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:22 am

i'm very very sad & disapointed with this 10/25 bullshit coming with 5.1...
I'm very very upset after Blizzard to see them re-transform the whole railding focus in a patch... it should have been done right from the start of MOP, or wait the next extention 6.0... this is very very impacting and will be hard to absord

i'm Raid lead from the first MCs run...40peoples (supposed difficulty on 25 management make me smile) and have witness all the impact in guild struct as soon as raid rules change from extension to extension an patch...

differrent id on 10 &25... omfg NONONONO!! all the madness with it should stay in the past...

the consensus 10/25 in Cata and as it is now is very fine for me.
with same loot table, it let everyone really choose wich format the fit better :
-10 for more social fun, less stress and "might be" easier raid management
-25 for the glory, at is it "suppossed" to be more challenging...


PS.
currently, id problem is with heroic (as soon as you start an heroic raid, you are lock with it and can't go later with another heroic raid as well as you can't recruit any good external&available raider to backup your roster.. which is quite a pain in the ass)



ruin my day...



EDIT : my bad.. concernt Korean, not Europ :D end of nightmare
let the emerging asian coutries die in virtual life :shock:
Last edited by oldboyz on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mannstein » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:55 am

oldboyz wrote:i'm very very sad & disapointed with this 10/25 bullshit coming with 5.1...
I'm very very upset after Blizzard to see them re-transform the whole railding focus in a patch... it should have been done right from the start of MOP, or wait the next extention 6.0

(...)
the consensus 10/25 in Cata and as it is now is very fine for me.
with same loot table, it let everyone really choose wich format the fit better :
-10 for more social fun, less stress and "might be" easier raid management
-25 for the glory, at is it "suppossed" to be more challenging...
(...)
ruin my day...

(sorry to snip on the post, but trying to keep the post short)
I'm a 25men raider, i like it and everytime a guild went 10men, i went for greener pastures...

The issue is that despite the fact that a large number of the 25men raiders that i know agree that 10men and 25men are two different horses, the effort\dificulty
vs the award are killing the 25men raids... and that is what i believe is impacting myself.

The issue is simple, Blizzard has 3markets in terms of raiders players:
A) Raiders that are 25 men only (myself)
B) Raiders that are 10 men only (yourself)
C) Raiders that don't care and only want to raid
And now (cata + 5.0) is drainning the C) pool into B) and killing the 25men guild.
Paragon (more vulnerable due to the language) was wakeup call to bliz. (personal opinion)

Don't think this as a "changing the game rules" mid game, think of this as an "emergency law to prevent the extintion of 25men guild".
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:05 am

That might explain reward changes, but not seperating the lockouts. If the valor upgrade system makes up for the gear difference, the lockouts is the only real big issue, and it's totally unnecessary.

And I think "we can't find enough highly-skilled Finnish-speaking raiders" is a little too niche an issue to be directly linked to lack of reward for 25 man versus 10.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby oldboyz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:18 am

why "force" C) pool to go in 25 ?
-may be they are not fan of the military aspect of 25?
-may be they are upset with elitist approach of many 25 raid ? (or they don't have yet the xp for a full raid focus)

and don't think 10m have no recruitment trouble too. 1 missing people in 10 is 10% loss compare to 4% in 25

on my very old serveur, they are now plentful of small guilds, and even when they are not able to raid, they don't merge with other, as the family aspect has took a big aspect of the game
(the only new recruit we made are people migrating from pther serveur)


Darwin is the best refere to decide the place for 10&25

if 25 has to die, let it die..

the less people will go on 25, the more prestigious it will become
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