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[25H] Gara'jal

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[25H] Gara'jal

Postby Maat » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:17 am

Hello - it's been awhile but here goes.

My guild has been progressing on Gara'jul H25 for 60ish pulls now, and the best we've gotten him to is 6%, which just means some clean-up and applying the reed to some dps here and there, but that's not the problem in my eyes. We normally tank with blood DK and myself as prot paladin, and quickly learned that this is not a fight for a blood DK tank. Luckily, his old main was a prot warrior, so he quickly levelled it to 90 over the weekend and got absurdly lucky in dungeons being it up to 463ilvl in time for this week's reset. Now, I find that his block mastery is covering almost every single shadow attack, and now it is me killing off the raid with nearly-unmitigated Voodoo Dolls.

I need clemency sacs, clemency bops, pain sups, vigilances, intervenes, spirit shells, monk bubbles, spirit links in addition to my regular CDs just to survive my tanking turns. Despite that there are many spans of time where I have to rely on a 20%CD+dodge trinket, which is a bit pathetic when that damage amounts to 400k burst on the dolls over a few seconds. Luckily the warrior is almost always tanking at that point to mitigate the ridiculous shadow attack RNG at 20%, but because I have to devour all the raid CDs just to get to that point...

I've geared for hit cap and hard exp cap with little emphasis on mastery and 531k unbuffed health. Switching hard exp cap to full mastery would give me ~2500 points that I could throw into mastery, which would be another ~4.2% block chance/sotr DR etc., but I see the exchange being somewhat semantic in light the 15-ish shadow attacks my raid has to suffer. Either I go from blocking 28.6% of the shadow attacks to 33% and take more melee damage from loss of sotr uptime, or continue trying to mitigate more melee damage and suffer the spikes when all I have is AD or glyphed DP. I don't see either way preventing 400k doll gibs. It's a bit demoralizing, to say the least, when the undergeared warrior is pretty much self-sufficient with my sacs.

One mistake I know I made was to try to be too self-sufficient in my first rotation, using guardian/AD/DP/HA/ret sacs in one go, which meant only devo/dp/HA would be up for the second with the ret sac only maybe being up due to how wonky clemency CDs can be. That's somewhat easily done other than having to talk over the totem chatter. I was hoping to find something that I'm missing other than "reroll a warrior."
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Brokenone » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:18 am

I think we have to rely on external CD's. We just killed 10 man last night after too many attempts. My rotation on the first part is:

HA with wings and strength pot
DP
Our Guardian Druid tranqs at the end of his Heart of the Wild
Guardian of Ancient Kings

When I come out I use BoP/Sac/Sac on the Guardian and that covers him the entire time.

Back to me it's HA again
DP
All I have left at this point is bubble and AD. For the raid to live I pretty much need 2 external CD's. Usually I get one, bubble, and then get the other. (Ironbark and Pain Sup).

The point is, yes we need some external CD's to get through the fight safely. However, part of the reason the other tank has it so easy is he gets 2 BoPs and 3-4 Sacs from you plus sacred shield the whole time. Meanwhile he's giving you a big fat nothing.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby sakkdaddy » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:50 am

I can give you some tips that worked well for us.

1. Use 5 healers. We tried a lot with 4, but it just made everything a lot harder, and was a less balanced raid composition. Our portal strategy more than covers the dps loss, and makes healing a lot more stable.

2. Use 2 portal groups consisting of 3 dps and 2 healers. The healers should rotate on their own, and use a separate channel on ventrilo (or whatever you use) to coordinate their rotation. The 3 dps should be warlocks, moonkins, and sp's if you have enough. Rets are good backups as they can LoH themselves and pop up to 20%+ of the buff immediately and go to town. Warriors aren't bad either, but dot classes are ideal. You will waste less dps on killing totems this way, rather than killing every totem and sending in smaller groups, but still always have people inside to help the tanks kill severers.

3. Bloodlust on the pull, and send in the first group as soon as bloodlust fades. Chain a few raid cooldowns as the incoming dps will be higher than normal since the spirits have piled up a bit. Don't worry, they will be back up again for the Frenzy.

4. 2 healers go in for each portal, but they don't stay in long. They shouldn't need to be inside more than 15 seconds or so, to get everyone with 20%+ of the buff, and then they should get back out. The dps should stay in as long as there are adds to kill, and port out ~3s before their debuff fades.

5. Around 2:00 until enrage, announce that the next port is the last. People should port in at around 1:30 before enrage, but the dps get out quickly with the healers this last time, and pot + burn the boss once they are out.

6. Have your raid cooldowns ready for chaining at the end. Use smoke-bombs to "reset" the raid damage you are taking (one at 15%, one at 5% hp for instance). Our cycle, for example, is barrier > totem > 4 DS's. During this, we have warriors chaining demoralizing banner + rallying cry, and rogues using smoke bombs based on the raid's hp.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:03 am

Brokenone wrote:The point is, yes we need some external CD's to get through the fight safely. However, part of the reason the other tank has it so easy is he gets 2 BoPs and 3-4 Sacs from you plus sacred shield the whole time. Meanwhile he's giving you a big fat nothing.

If the Warrior's getting Sac and giving nothing back then he's doing it wrong. He should be using Intervene and Vigilance, no?
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Brokenone » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:56 am

KysenMurrin wrote:If the Warrior's getting Sac and giving nothing back then he's doing it wrong. He should be using Intervene and Vigilance, no?


Yea that's true for his case. I tank with a Guardian Druid so I get nothing ;p
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Hespherus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:47 am

sakkdaddy wrote:
5. Around 2:00 until enrage, announce that the next port is the last. People should port in at around 1:30 before enrage, but the dps get out quickly with the healers this last time, and pot + burn the boss once they are out.

6. Have your raid cooldowns ready for chaining at the end. Use smoke-bombs to "reset" the raid damage you are taking (one at 15%, one at 5% hp for instance). Our cycle, for example, is barrier > totem > 4 DS's. During this, we have warriors chaining demoralizing banner + rallying cry, and rogues using smoke bombs based on the raid's hp.


Why 2:00? Do you also assume the boss is at a certain %HP? Too bad in 10s theres barely any cds you can use. And the adds seem like they spawn at a higher rate towards the end. Still good tip.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Maat » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:57 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Sakkdaddy:
We do use 5 healers, the 1.5-minute prep and smoke bomb technique, but we've been doing 2-2-3 rotations and not skipping totems, so rotating two healers like that probably wouldn't fly. I'm not sure that with 6% wipes they would be willing to change their portal strat. The problem, though, lies with 80k+80k+220k RNG doll deaths (with 20-30% DR CDs) thanks to me.

Brokenone:
I see you use only 3 personal CDs and 1/2 externals? Do you cover the entire phase of 6-7 shadow attacks? Do you time them with the shadow attack timer?

I have a feeling I'll just have to make my own 5-man raid CD rotation with subs just for me.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby sakkdaddy » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:51 am

Hespherus wrote:Why 2:00? Do you also assume the boss is at a certain %HP? Too bad in 10s theres barely any cds you can use. And the adds seem like they spawn at a higher rate towards the end. Still good tip.


Just to give the last portal team time to get in and be back out and in position before the boss Frenzies. Usually there is still a group inside with our timings, so the last group actually goes in more like 1:40 and is out around 1:30 then we settle in and burn.


@Maat - I highly recommend that you stop using 3 portal groups like that. I know that it is a common strategy, but it's just suboptimal. It wastes dps on totems, stresses everyone out with more complicated rotations, and is just unnecessary. If you send one in for each totem, then often you are going to be missing 2 groups at once for a while, causing complications for your healers outside, and also causing your team to have less DPS and HPS overall. There are 3 reasons to port in:
1. To kill Severers for the tank.
2. To kill adds and reduce incoming raid damage.
3. To give healers mana.

You can do all of this very effectively using 2 larger groups, instead of 3 smaller ones.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Brokenone » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:47 am

Maat wrote:Brokenone:
I see you use only 3 personal CDs and 1/2 externals? Do you cover the entire phase of 6-7 shadow attacks? Do you time them with the shadow attack timer?

I have a feeling I'll just have to make my own 5-man raid CD rotation with subs just for me.


The first time around is with Heroism so that helps too. There is a few second window before the Guardian Tranq that isn't covered, and a few second window right before I get sent down that isn't covered. (DP, HA, Tranq, GAnK. Also, during the first one there aren't many adds initially.

The second time around I need 2 external CD's usually, but can still cover the full time (DP, HA, Bubble, AD, Pain Sup)
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Maat » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:47 am

sakkdaddy wrote:
Hespherus wrote:@Maat - I highly recommend that you stop using 3 portal groups like that. I know that it is a common strategy, but it's just suboptimal. It wastes dps on totems, stresses everyone out with more complicated rotations, and is just unnecessary. If you send one in for each totem, then often you are going to be missing 2 groups at once for a while, causing complications for your healers outside, and also causing your team to have less DPS and HPS overall. There are 3 reasons to port in:
1. To kill Severers for the tank.
2. To kill adds and reduce incoming raid damage.
3. To give healers mana.

You can do all of this very effectively using 2 larger groups, instead of 3 smaller ones.


We did end up beating it (with 15 seconds to spare, somehow...) using mainly 2-dps totem groups. We're a bit melee-heavy so needed the extra activity in the spirit realm anyway.

I just find it ironic that over the 4 tanking phases before his frenzy, I took 4 million less damage than the warrior's 10M, yet the healers hated me 500x more for it.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Paoanii » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:59 am

Maat wrote:Hello - it's been awhile but here goes.

My guild has been progressing on Gara'jul H25 for 60ish pulls now, and the best we've gotten him to is 6%, which just means some clean-up and applying the reed to some dps here and there, but that's not the problem in my eyes. We normally tank with blood DK and myself as prot paladin, and quickly learned that this is not a fight for a blood DK tank. Luckily, his old main was a prot warrior, so he quickly levelled it to 90 over the weekend and got absurdly lucky in dungeons being it up to 463ilvl in time for this week's reset. Now, I find that his block mastery is covering almost every single shadow attack, and now it is me killing off the raid with nearly-unmitigated Voodoo Dolls.

I need clemency sacs, clemency bops, pain sups, vigilances, intervenes, spirit shells, monk bubbles, spirit links in addition to my regular CDs just to survive my tanking turns. Despite that there are many spans of time where I have to rely on a 20%CD+dodge trinket, which is a bit pathetic when that damage amounts to 400k burst on the dolls over a few seconds. Luckily the warrior is almost always tanking at that point to mitigate the ridiculous shadow attack RNG at 20%, but because I have to devour all the raid CDs just to get to that point...


This is a fight as a paladin tank in which timing your mitigation is much more important than volume of mitigation. Our mastery seems almost useless for this fight at first glance, but in reality is one of the most powerful for this fight by timing your SoTR a bit more carefully. When tanking this fight I use only personals and 3 Sacs every time I tank (1-2 from our other paladin tank and the rest from rets or holy pallies), but Intervene is even more powerful without taking Safeguard into account. There is one thing to get out of your head immediately that I can see: the shadowy attacks are not the issue. The shadowy attacks WILL be a large damage spike; there is no way around that. The key to keeping your Voodoo Dolls alive and healthy are the attacks IMMEDIATELY BEFORE AND AFTER. This is where timing becomes key, and where Intervene truly shines.

When tanking, use your personal/external cooldowns to reduce the shadowy attacks, but time your SoTR to cover the attack either immediately before or after the shadowy attack. Your awareness is important here when making the choice: you will be able to get one, but not both. Making the right choice is extremely important for your Voodoo Doll targets survival. If they are low approaching the shadowy attack, cover the attack before, if not, cover the attack after. The key to this fight isn't minimizing damage taken overall, it is carefully controlling the rate of damage intake, which paladins excel at. Intervene is extremely powerful when tanking this fight as well because it diverts the melee swing OFF of the active tank. Do not use your Intervene rotationally, it is EXTREMELY powerful as an emergency cooldown. If Voodoo Dolls are low going into a shadowy attack, use your SoTR to cover the attack before, giving the healers additional time to heal the targets up, then get intervened. The shadowy attack will not be transferred to the Warrior tank, but the attack following it will. This means that you have guaranteed that you will take no damage from the next melee swing and your healers have an additional 1.5 seconds to heal the Voodoo Doll targets.

For this reason, and this will be a bit controversial, I've found haste to be much more valuable than mastery on this fight. As an offspec tank with a good chunk of my Ret gear equipped I am sitting at ~502k health and 6500 haste with hit/exp (almost) hard cap. This allows me to reliably have 3 HoPo for every single shadowy attack.

My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/l ... o/advanced

PS: Do not leave Spirit Link Totem down for its full duration on this fight. It will very likely kill your Voodoo Doll targets because it prevents them from being topped off easily by healers. Have your Resto Shaman spec into totemic restoration, they can drop it for a single tick to equalize health, then pull it immediately for half cooldown.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Diceone » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:18 pm

So the way I've found that the CD rotation works for this fight is relatively straight forward for me. The problem is that you need unbreakable spirit instead of clemency, since you can't sac yourself I found this to not be too much of a problem though I can see why some wouldn't want to make the tradeoff. ShoR doesn't reduce damage from shadowy attacks because it's shadow, not physical damage unfortunately.

I start the fight but it doesn't matter if you're first or second.

1-Wait for vodoo dolls buff to be applied. The first shadow attack in the fight hits you before it gets applied.

2-DP the first one about a second before the timer finishes. This should let you have DP up for 2 of them. I'm still not 100% sold on unglyphed for this fight since you get hit pretty hard anyways and glyphed DP gives your healers some more leeway to topping them off between shadow attacks.

3- After hitting DP toss up holy avenger (I also have jade warlord figuring which I pop at the same time for some 55%+ physical DR). This combined with US as mentioned earlier means basically a 30s CD on DP.

4- For the first shadow attack without DP up hit GoAK. This should again be up for 2 attacks and provide some serious defence against his regular attacks.

5- If you have timed everything right, which is a bit hard, you shouldn't need another cd before your DP is back up for the remaining attacks before you get banished.

When you have to tank the second rotation replace GoAK with AD. It's not quite as strong but if you do this you don't need the externals (they still help but strictly speaking you wont need them). Also if your guild is ok with you just using HA + Trinket for an effective CD then you can delay GoAK until you need it. This rotation also leaves both GoAK and AD up for the frenzy phase which I usually end up tanking as well.
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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Samiam » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:33 am

ok here is my rotation for tanking this and its very very stressfull. We have the warrior pick up the boss first so that ensures he will have the boss down the stretch.

MT gets banished

1. Once I have Vodoo doll I DS, this does not drop aggro and it mitigates 100% of damage.

2. DP unglyphed at 1 second left till shadowy attack

3. after Shadowy attack 2 I used Holy avenger and keep Sotr up through the next attack, if DP was still up great if not atleast the vodoo targets took alot less damage durring the 10 seconds in between and can survive the 270k hit.

4. Goak for the next 2 attacks

5. ^

6. by this time the warrior is up and ready to give me his CD, so I AD and get and ask for a safe guard.

7. Dodge brewfest trinket, Sac Devo aura

8. a healer CD if needed. But prob banish is coming.

Second time around DS is on CD so I open with hoP, problem is no hopo. After that a rotation of healer CD's and personals as they come off CD. get ported again and let the warrior have the boss for Final burn. you can also hop the warrior to help mitigate damage last 20% we use it at about 10% or when he has no CD up. Smoke bombs at 8% and another at 5% kill.

Hope this helps its my first time posting anything tanking related on any forum.

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Re: [25H] Gara'jal

Postby Schroom » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:46 am

yes DS works fine. just bubble through. the Vodoo doll debuff works like a fixate. so even taunting doesn't make the Boss switch target. (knowing this your tanks cann go full DPS on the boss without risk of outTPSing each other) also Hand of protection works fine. (only the shadow damage from the totems hits through of course.)

hermes is a nice addon. for the tanks in order to know all the time what CDs are available to them, so they can just shout out for external CDs.

I wish they would finally give me my barkskin from Sinergy :(
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