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Tank DPS in T14 Raids

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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby stevos » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:18 am

Treck wrote:
stevos wrote:Either way we can't have tanks topping dps meters and beating healers on output.

Why not?
I think a lot of people are stuck with the old way of thinking that tanks arnt suppose to do any damage, just sit there and soak the hits from the tanks.
Now, I have no idea what direction blizzard wanna take us, but things change, quite a few dps speccs are now considered good in pve, while they wernt before.
Blizzard idea is that tanks should compete with damage dealers to be doing equal dps, but thats never going to happen.
Either tanks are getting to much vengeance that if played decently, its no problem outdpsing the others, or we arnt getting enough and cant compete nomatter how good we are doing.
It will end up as "this is a fight where tanks will do damage" or "here we dont get enough vengeance to do much"


Because it starts to erode the reason to play a dps.

Dps roles are about damage, healers about healing and tanks about damage control, or how it should be.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Brokenone » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:41 am

I would much rather the current model for Prot Paladins than the previous model. There are 3 components to tanking:

1) Threat - Making sure the things are hitting you
2) Survival - Making sure you live through the things hitting you
3) Damage - Dealing damage to the things hitting you


In the BC model Threat mattered a lot. Since BC though, Blizzard said they don't like threat throttling the DPS so it's been a non-factor ever since. Survival in BC was just about keeping Holy Shield up, and using long CDs. In Wrath survival was pretty much still about keeping Holy Shield up. In Cata, with Vengeance tanks did some damage, but survival and threat were pretty much irrelevant feeling.

Currently, both damage and threat are active components of the rotation. Sometimes you heal, sometimes you put up physical damage reduction. Either way, if you aren't doing a solid rotation, your raid will suffer from your low damage output. Basically, they have replaced threat with damage, and I think it's a great feeling. You can contribute meaningfully to both the raid DPS and your own survival.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:28 am

stevos wrote:Because it starts to erode the reason to play a dps.

Dps roles are about damage, healers about healing and tanks about damage control, or how it should be.

I disagree; tanks still have a very tightly defined role, one which can't be replaced by a dps, and tanks themselves cannot do what dps do. Tank damage is almost entirely bound up in tanking - dps can do their thing in any situation, while tanks can only do it while a boss is hitting them. A raid group of only tanks and healers couldn't beat a current-tier raid boss. It could just be a case of getting used to where tanks sit now, and the dps mattering relative to each other, not the tanks.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby stevos » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:02 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I disagree; tanks still have a very tightly defined role, one which can't be replaced by a dps, and tanks themselves cannot do what dps do. Tank damage is almost entirely bound up in tanking - dps can do their thing in any situation, while tanks can only do it while a boss is hitting them. A raid group of only tanks and healers couldn't beat a current-tier raid boss. It could just be a case of getting used to where tanks sit now, and the dps mattering relative to each other, not the tanks.


That's the issue I have with it though. Tanks can only do their dmg when they are getting hit by the boss, well....tanks arent' tanks unless they are getting hit by the boss, they are just naff dps at that point.

The issue is effectively your making tanks do 3 roles (dps, healing, damage taking)and dps/healers doing 1 role.

Most dps players like topping meters (healers have other goals, in keeping people alive) and seeing a tank at the top is demoralising.

That's ignoring the fact there is meant to be some skill in damage mitigation of a tank. We are meant to be good at reducing dmg spikes and now also good at output. The knock on effect is they then conflict with each other, and we have situations where people are taking more dmg on purpose to output more, which fundementally feels wrong to me.

This then is linked to us being required to stress the healers more to try and push out a little more dps to help progression and then healers getting blamed/feeling bad for deaths because they were forced to heal the tank rather than save a dps or were unable to mana manage effectively.

Don't get my wrong, as tank its fun to top the meters, or even better be in a dps race with someone but you have to think of the other roles.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:02 am

Tank damage is only going to scale higher in future content - far more so than dps.

Mob damage increases as a function of both tank gear and healer gear. If it doesn't, then healing tanks becomes trivial, and we all know that new raids are always challenging. To take an example from last expansion, Ragnaros hit literally about twice as hard as Al'akir. This implies that tank vengeance would be roughly twice as high in T15 vs now, and historically, damage dealers don't double their output in a single tier.

Logs of Sha of Fear damage from beta support this rough scale factor.

I disagree; tanks still have a very tightly defined role, one which can't be replaced by a dps, and tanks themselves cannot do what dps do. Tank damage is almost entirely bound up in tanking - dps can do their thing in any situation, while tanks can only do it while a boss is hitting them. A raid group of only tanks and healers couldn't beat a current-tier raid boss. It could just be a case of getting used to where tanks sit now, and the dps mattering relative to each other, not the tanks.


1.) Are you seriously OK with the tank doing more damage than a dps, almost as much healing as a healer, and still being the only role in the game that can consistently not die while being meleed by a boss? And if you answered yes to that question, would you be fine if hunter pets were patched so that they're better tanks than you are on a permanent basis (and the only reason you're in the raid is for gear because there's one or two bosses per tier that a hunter pet cannot properly tank/position?)

2.) As a matter of fact, last expansion there was a raid of 10 DKs that killed heroic Ragnaros while he was semi-current content. I fully expect healerless 2-6 tank groups to start killing stuff as soon as progression is over.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Brokenone » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:34 am

Kishandra wrote:1.) Are you seriously OK with the tank doing more damage than a dps, almost as much healing as a healer, and still being the only role in the game that can consistently not die while being meleed by a boss? And if you answered yes to that question, would you be fine if hunter pets were patched so that they're better tanks than you are on a permanent basis (and the only reason you're in the raid is for gear because there's one or two bosses per tier that a hunter pet cannot properly tank/position?)

2.) As a matter of fact, last expansion there was a raid of 10 DKs that killed heroic Ragnaros while he was semi-current content. I fully expect healerless 2-6 tank groups to start killing stuff as soon as progression is over.


1. I'm fine with tank damage, but wouldn't mind if it was toned down to be closer to DPS levels of DPS. I think healing should be toned down as well, or be a bigger tradeoff. They just patched it so that it is LESS of a tradeoff though...I don't know what being meleed by the boss has to do with it, since that is the role in question.

1b. While I think you are being facetious, I'll bite and answer seriously. If it was optimal to have 0 tanks and a hunter/warlock pet people would absolutely do it (and have plenty of times. We got server first Sarth 3d 10 man with a warlock pet tanking. We killed a boss in Vanilla Naxx with a Hunter Pet tanking..). Tanks would obviously swap out to a DPS/Healer role in that scenario. It seems pretty unlikely that that would happen on a majority of fights though.

2. People do strange group makeups all the time. The point is they are far from optimal. Unless the norm becomes a 10 man with 4 or 5 tanks for some strange Vengeance stacking then I don't see what the problem is.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:44 am

Here's a clearer rendition of what I mean: Tanks are designed to take the melee hits and control the fight. DPS are designed to deal the damage in the fight. Healers are designed to heal the damage that the raid takes. Now, if one of these roles started being better at another role's designated job, then it's problematic, for example, right now tank being better at doing damage than dps. The question was, what if the shoe was on the other foot? If pets were better tanks than tanks (which has happened a few times and was hotfixed immediately).

I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm saying that right now DPS and healers feel robbed of their jobs and rightfully so. Even more so as a healer - if you take two paladin tanks to a fight, you can straight up drop a healer without any repercussions.

And yes, if it was optimal to have a pet tanking most fights, guilds would do it - that proposition was mainly a thought experiment. Think about how you, as a tank, would feel if that happens: that a class not designed to do your role is now better at your role than you ever will be. That's roughly what dps/healers are feeling right now. The only reason why dps aren't being pushed out of the raid is because there's a finite amount of vengeance to go around and more damage is always good. Healers *are* being pushed out of raids due to tank effectiveness.

It's fun being OP but it's very unfun as one of the other 23 people in the raid.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Brokenone » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:58 am

I'm interested more in what makes playing a Tank fun. In BC, people loved when I tanked because they weren't throttled on threat. It was fun for me to make sure they weren't in danger of pulling aggro. My damage wasn't a big deal, and I couldn't save myself from death other than to maintain Holy Shield. That's not the greatest model because it has nothing to do with keeping yourself alive.

Fast forward to Cata. Threat is a non-issue. Tanks don't do significant DPS. Paladins don't have active mitigation at all. As far as "Controlling the fight"...that takes about as much effort for me as it does for the melee following behind hitting it in the back. Pretty boring honestly. On some fights you could almost hit it for a while and then go afk.

In short, with threat not mattering, I think damage needs to matter.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Koatanga » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:28 pm

1: Tanks often have to deal with the mechanics of the fight more than most. We need to face the dragon away from the raid, or toward it, or keep it X yards away from something, or kite it out of buff pools, or kite it into increased damage pools. DPS don't care about that - they just hit their rotation and move if their screen starts blinking red.

2: Tanks often have to talk. Lots of people hate talking on vent. Typing "taunt the jade one" in /raid doesn't cut when you are watching for buffs/debuffs, stuff on the floor, and your own rotation. It usually takes actual speaking over Vent/Mumble to be an effective raid tank.

3: It not like "tank DPS is awesome, so if we stack more tanks it will be more awesome". We only do impressive amounts of DPS when we have vengeance. When we don't, we do squat. Since you can only ever have one tank getting appreciable amounts of vengeance from a boss at a time, you are limited in the number of these uber-dps people you can have in the raid.

4: For many reasons, tanking has declined in popularity. Tank queues for heroics are still the shortest of all queues. Part of it is the numbers game - you only need 2-3 tanks for 25-man, whereas with 5 dungeon parties, you need 5 tanks.

I believe the uber DPS is an attempt at bliz to get some of the jealous DPS types exploring the tank role, and to make up for some of the downsides of playing the tank role.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Darielle » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:30 pm

Talking about future content when talking about scaling is only half the story.


But keeping things uniform through future content is the entire point of Vengeance, both when it was introduced and now.

Without Vengeance in the picture, tanks are always strongest in terms of these numbers at the start of an expansion. Vengeance prevents falling off through the course of an expansion. It means against a boss like the T15 first boss who is probably going to do 2x as much damage, Frenzied Regen will heal for 2x as much healing. Against a boss in T16 who does 3x as much damage, FR will heal for 3x as much healing. Roughly. This mimics the effect where Dodging, Blocking, ShoR'ing etc. will also be roughly 2x as effective.

We are stacking 3 offensive stats, hit/expertise/haste


Hit/Expertise are an initial investment. You have 7.5% Hit and 15% Expertise right now before even doing raids if you try stacking it hard enough. That number is never going to increase from the start of raiding this tier, to the end of raiding this tier, to next tier, all the way to the end of the expansion.

If you want to stack dps stats, Haste is the scaling factor. And it doesn't even apply to all tanks, so suggesting that just because we as Paladins benefit from it, all tanks scale as fast as dps is just plain silly.

Tanks often have to deal with the mechanics of the fight more than most. We need to face the dragon away from the raid, or toward it, or keep it X yards away from something, or kite it out of buff pools, or kite it into increased damage pools. DPS don't care about that - they just hit their rotation and move if their screen starts blinking red.


*not sure if serious*
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Raive » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:50 am

Tank damage seems to be in a relatively good place at the moment, on most fights now I'm coming in right around the middle of the group for damage.
Keep in mind my guild has been progressing rather slowly through our 25 man due to sloppy execution by certain players and an inconsistent healer base.

Yes, if you're pushed into heroics already and straining your group to the last .05% damage/healing to get the bosses down the tanks are probably still up near the top as they "outgear" the dps via vengeance. But it seems if you're dealing with content that your group is actually technically geared for (still need upgrades but the occasional piece ends up being sharded now) tank damage appears to be in a good place.

I do, however, think that pally tank healing needs to be nerfed, as much fun as it is to laugh at the fact that I do more healing than our worst 2 healers on any given fight it's not actually a fun "choice". They need to either make the healing an actual tradeoff again (I think the only time I haven't used SoI on a boss kill was our 10 man spiritbinder fight where we were continuing to wipe sub 3% so we were squeezing out every bit of damage we could [yay lame censure damage]) or they need to make the healing into more of an active model somehow (again adding some kind of trade off due to reduced GCD's) as passively outhealing people with something that you pretty well HAVE to use is fairly lame.
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