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Tank DPS in T14 Raids

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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Bellanka » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:01 am

Yeah, between Annihilates and eating Marching Orders with CDs up I was doing 30%+ of the raid's damage. Our Monk tank was doing 20%.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby stevos » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:40 pm

I am a little worried by these spike figures.

They are going to cause a lot of QQing from dps/healer classes and in turn almost certainly going to result in a fix from blizzard. What concerns me is they have a bad habbit of over fixing issues like this, sledge hammer to crack a nut comes to mind.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:42 pm

Heh, not to overly whine, but right now, 4 of the top 6 dps specs in the game are tanking specs (guardians only outdamage about two thirds of the dps specs instead of every spec.)

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/100/14/60/default/#7vvvvv

Tanks have topped almost every fight I've been in (and I hold or have held the #1 ranked parse for my spec on every fight in MSV at one point or another), and it's just exacerbated in heroic mode where mobs hit harder and grant more vengeance but you don't magically get 50% more dps out of nowhere.

Tank dps is definitely not a "nut" :)
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby PsiVen » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:33 pm

I have been cruising right with the DPS in our 10-man, and top DPS on both heroics we've killed. I can imagine with 25M Vengeance this could be a problem, but I don't know how it looks with gear scaling. Blizzard has largely indicated so far that they think it will balance out when the DPS have gear to match the fights... but that kind of implies that tank damage would always be highest on progression, which doesn't solve anything.

That said, it's mostly an e-peen thing. As long as they smash mechanics that encourage you to bring extra "tanks" there is no competition and no real harm in letting tanks do a ton of damage. I've been saying this for a long time now and I'm happy to see it implemented, even at the cost of doing crappy damage without Vengeance.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby wawel » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:13 am

Wasn't it always an issue at the begining of all expansions? I mean: dps are not rly geared and now we got few times more AP tho vengeance than propably most dpsers will get by geming/enchanting.
On my pala i can easly hit 30k or even more dps BUT in certain fights i got 25k healing per sec and only like 8k dps. Seems legit, you need to push dps? Tank will do it, you need to offheal yourself? Do it. I rly rly like it, we are now much more flexible and if we have to we are big scarry hard hitting guys too :)
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:27 pm

In the previous expansions tank damage has always been complete garbage (expecially with vengeance cap and 500% threat modifier).

It's a new thing that tank damage is on par with DPS, but Ghostcrawler also confirmed this is intended. The important thing is (as Psiven said) that they need to block any mechanic that would make bringing more tanks to the fight better. The nerf to overkill damage is definitively one of them, and makes plenty of sense.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:21 pm

There's plenty of issues with tanks outdamaging actual dps on raid encounters (because, lets face it - tanks aren't doing the same damage as dps, they're doing more):

1.) Devalues composition. Why bother trying to find a method to 1-tank a fight when you can bring two tanks and do more overall damage anyway?
2.) 10 vs 25 balance. Nearly every single raid mob is balanced between these two dungeons with the assumption that tanks do either 0 or 1/3 the damage of a dps (10m mob hp fluctuates within ~3% of 33% of 25m mob hp). However, with tank damage, 10m usually end up around 40-45% of a 25m raid's dps with the same relative amount of healing.
3.) Encourages guilds to bring more tanks than necessary as long as the vengeance can be spread around. (Spirit kings heroic, as an example. Yes I know they fixed it. I'm also sure that changing the root of the issue rather than quashing issues as they arise is far better design.)
4.) Have you seen the healing that some tanks, mostly paladins, are outputting? Our paladin tank does anywhere between 30k hps and 40k hps sustained for an entire encounter. Your comp for a fight could be, for example, 1 tank 3 heal 6 dps. Instead, change that to 3 tank 2 heal 5 dps. You end up with more control, more healing, more dps. Why wouldn't you want the second group?
5.) Perhaps most importantly, it's a huge psychological detriment to the vast majority of the raiding base. If you, as a dps, cannot compete with a tank in damage or control, then what makes you feel good about raiding? All the spotlight is shined on the two or four superstars in your group who are topping damage done, damage taken, and (almost) healing done - there's no incentive to do your best because the top dps is always outdamaged by the top tank. This makes dps less willing to play the game and while it makes tanks feel really good, it's just as bad, if not worse, then allowing a few select dps classes to significantly outdamage the others.

For what it's worth, I run with 3 raid groups. I maintank one, off tank another, and dps the third, and I absolutely support this statment: Vengeance literally needs to be cut in half.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Belloc » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:22 pm

Vengeance was hotfixed (nerfed) either over the weekend or late last week, so it should no longer be an issue.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Juugimus » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:07 pm

Belloc wrote:Vengeance was hotfixed (nerfed) either over the weekend or late last week, so it should no longer be an issue.



Now that the DPS got their wish and had vengeance nerfed, they need to step up and make up the difference.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:18 pm

I have anecdotal data from yesterday that tank vengeance was still going strong. Two examples:

#1: tank does 150k dps on heroic will. Highest dps was at 120k.
#2: I did two challenge mode gold runs after the raid. One I tanked as bear (lowest dps tank) and averaged 75k dps throughout the dungeon. The next I dpsed as feral and averaged 68k dps throughout the dungeon, on the same character.

I'm aware that on a forum dedicated to tanking, my viewpoint on tank dps isn't going to be overly popular, but I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with the above scenarios.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Treck » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:50 am

People need to stop thinking the vengeance "fix" was to make vengeance worse, it was NOT.
Vengeance was nerfed 10% the 8th october, the "fix" was ONLY to remove vengeance beeing abused on oneshot abilities.
You still gain shitloads of vengeance if you take shitloads of damage.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby stevos » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:45 am

I have never liked Vengence. It was designed to fix the problem of tanks not scaling as fast as dps. The current model encourages tanks to stack offensive stats and therefore scaling shouldn't be a problem.

Either way we can't have tanks topping dps meters and beating healers on output. On the flip side, its a lot more fun tanking where you can compete with dps.

The issue is as dps gear increases, vengence will not increase and therefore tank dps will not scale with DPS'ers and therefore the whole dps race comes a mute point.

Tweaking vengence levels is not the solution in my opinion, getting rid of it and starting again basing tank output level with dps'ers is.

The problem with that is PVP, but i am fed up with PVE taking a hit for PVP.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Darielle » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:38 am

stevos wrote:I have never liked Vengence. It was designed to fix the problem of tanks not scaling as fast as dps. The current model encourages tanks to stack offensive stats and therefore scaling shouldn't be a problem.


The current model encourages us to stack one offensive stat (Haste), which isn't nearly as good for people who aren't us (like Warriors, and Death Knights). That also only applies for content that doesn't warrant EH to begin with.
Hit/Expertise isn't the sort of thing that will actually go up across tiers in an expansion. It's an initial investment that has already stopped.

Going from there to suggesting scaling shouldn't be a problem is a far, far fetch.

You're looking at damage dealers getting gear on the same fights that we're doing; that was never something Vengeance was meant to help with. As "damage dealer gear gets better", a given tank is also going to be tanking harder hitting bosses that will give more Vengeance, such as the bosses in Terrace, on Heroic, and the bosses in T15 who will hit harder than T14 bosses. Bear in mind that Vengeance is now about more than sheer damage; AP-scaling survivablity such as FR, Shield Barrier are also tied to it. It's also supposedly there to make 25-man tanks do more damage than 10-man tanks who do more than 5-man tanks.

The phenomenon that Vengeance's effect kicks in the instant you start pulling the boss is a small quirk that serves to help with that. You don't need more Vengeance for Barrier/FR after you have a boss on farm; you want that kicking in as soon as you're pulling the harder hitting boss, or getting into the harder hitting phase.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Treck » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:10 am

stevos wrote:Either way we can't have tanks topping dps meters and beating healers on output.

Why not?
I think a lot of people are stuck with the old way of thinking that tanks arnt suppose to do any damage, just sit there and soak the hits from the tanks.
Now, I have no idea what direction blizzard wanna take us, but things change, quite a few dps speccs are now considered good in pve, while they wernt before.
Blizzard idea is that tanks should compete with damage dealers to be doing equal dps, but thats never going to happen.
Either tanks are getting to much vengeance that if played decently, its no problem outdpsing the others, or we arnt getting enough and cant compete nomatter how good we are doing.
It will end up as "this is a fight where tanks will do damage" or "here we dont get enough vengeance to do much"
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby stevos » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:13 am

We are stacking 3 offensive stats, hit/expertise/haste

Talking about future content when talking about scaling is only half the story. For most guilds, you will still be farming current content well into the next to get the missing upgrades. Bosses will likely hit less hard then come the nerfs.
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