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Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

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Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Nikachelle » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:39 am

I wasn't really sure where to put this, so I thought I'd just make a new thread. Last expansion had a lot of fights that were not particularly favourable for melee and I was wondering if so far it was feeling the same for those doing normal and heroic modes. (I ask because we'll start raiding in two weeks and it's starting to look like I'll have an overabundance of melee which is concerning.)

So, to those who are currently raiding, can you give me your thoughts on melee versus ranged dps for the encounters that are available to us now? And/or possibly if you have insight on all the T14 raids. Thank you!
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby wawel » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:06 am

Hi guys.

I rly like this tier of raids, as for now we just have 1 boss to take down ( on normal dont get excited :P ) and as far as i can say there is no issue with type of dps you have in grp. You could pick a lot of meeles and and won't be put down like in dragon soul for example.

But as far as I know ranged dps are slightly in adventage if its about last boss as they need to dodge a lot more of stuff.

Still i would alos like to see more poinions of you guys.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Juugimus » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:18 am

Melee is at some sort of disadvantage in 5 of the 6 fights so far IMO. It's not insurmountable by any stretch, but having a melee heavy group will give you some things you have to work around.

Stone Guard - chains and pools
Feng - run out for epicenter (Ranged can still DPS while away from boss)
Gara'jal - melee not good for totem duty
Spirit Kings - no real disadvantage
Elegon - melee has to run far out to reset stacks
Will of the Emperor - Lots of stuff to dodge around boss.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:10 am

For the first week's Stone Guard I ended up removing all of the melee (was pools, chains, aoe, IIRC) after wasting an night on it with a balanced raid, and we ended up 3 shotting it with a range stacked raid. Granted, some of that was due to people just not having gear yet, but stacking with ranged meant we could completely ignore the Jade Chains mechanic. This is stupid.

Feng is somewhat counterbalanced by P3, and not getting targeted with Arcane Resonance (which can only target healers and ranged, unless I'm mistaken). While having to run out of epicenter is bollocks, it's not a raid-wiping mechanic the way Arcane Resonance is. Also the DPS loss time is pretty even as almost everything misses while he's casting epicenter.

The hassle on melee for Elegon is ridiculous.

For Will, you could argue that having to dance is counterbalanced by the opportunity to get the 500k button press. Last week we had a rogue running back and forth between bosses so he could try to get every dance.

But yes, lots of mechanics that are particularly harsh or unsuitable for melee.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Nikachelle » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:29 am

Jesus... Okay, thanks very much guys.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:14 pm

Also you can't DPS during epicenter due to -hit debuff on raid.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Treck » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:17 pm

Thats applied to everyone, so its no differance for melee or ranged there.
Most people have everyone stand in melee during that phase cause you will stun every 2nd and shield every 2nd.
And when the shield is up the debuff is removed for the duration if you stand in the shield.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby PsiVen » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:17 pm

IMO:

Stone Guard - Favors ranged stack unless Jasper Chains are out, then it favors good cleave damage (I believe rogues and mistwalkers are good for this at least). For a 10-man it seems very bad to have exactly 1 melee on SG with Chains because they get targeted constantly.
Feng - Favors melee as stacking ranged will make Arcane harder, everyone stands in melee anyway for all other phases (at least for our 10H strat).
Gara - Possibly not good for totems, although melee hybrids who can self-heal have potentially important utility.
Kings - Doesn't matter, if anything I would say melee favored because of the stack/spread mechanics.
Elegon - Sucks for melee having to run farther into the debuff platform.
Will - Seems pretty bad unless you are ahead of adds enough to use a melee dodging combos full time, then it is very rewarding.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Treck » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:41 pm

While melee vs range is the topic, on many fights its more about the sort of damage they can do that matters.
Stone guard - Favors cleaving, range vs melee isnt that big of a concern, theres always room to be in melee anyway altho lots of movement, range is safer ofcourse.
Feng - You pretty much just want high single target damage (heavy aoe for the shield phase in heroic, but really not a hard phase to handle anyway), melee have it easier than ranged anyway in the arcane phase.
Garajal - either just stay up and nuke high single target, or while ranged is nice for going down due to not having to move, there are melee classes like Dks that will do a lot better job at it even tho they are melee.
Kings - Ddepends on heroic or normal, shields are easier to handle as melee, since no casts flying in the air triggering them, while flanking orders are a lot more painful as melee.
Elegon - While ranged have it "easier" its more about classes beeing good at bursting down the charges, the whole resetting thing isnt really that bothersome imo, during the charges melee can just remember to reset automatically after each charge/add, since they are running with them out to the edges anyway.
Will of the emperor - Ranged have it a lot easier here, or rather you need a lot of damage on everything on the fight, and melee wont be doing that good for the raid there, while ranged will be able to. While the melee shouldnt really have a hard time on the fight, you need damage everywhere, something melee just cant do as well.

Imo not many of the fights are melee unfriendly, but you cant have a raid with to many in there, then it becomes a problem.
But ofcourse, in general, ranged beeing able to not care about where the boss is and just stand wherever they want is an advantage.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Nikachelle » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:57 pm

Well, the kind of apps I was getting would mean I would have 5 melee and 2 ranged on the raid team. Which would mean there's a solid chance zero ranged would show up one day. I already knew this was unrealistic, but hearing what you've all had to say means that there's no way I can take these applicants.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Worldie » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:43 pm

On a side note, tactics for melee for pretty much 90% of the MoV fights can be put down to "stand still and dps".
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby Kishandra » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:05 pm

Heroic modes perspective from a 6/6:

Stone guards - no difference really. Melee do more cleave damage but jasper chains screw them over more.
Feng - melee > range for arcane phase. Range slightly > melee for fire phase. Slightly in favor of melee this fight.
Garajal - range have a slight advantage here - they kill spirits more efficiently than melee.
Spirit kings - a wash here. Range need to pay attention to more mechanics but melee don't stay on boss the entire time.
Elegon - melee kick range ass on this fight. Melee consistently outdamage range and are able to kill multiple waves of adds.
Will of the emperor - heavily melee favored. Enough range to clear out the rages as they spawn, then stack melee for the rest because of the 50% damage bonus.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Imo not many of the fights are melee unfriendly, but you cant have a raid with to many in there, then it becomes a problem.


That's really always what "melee unfriendly" means from a recruitment perspective. Few mechanics actually encourage sitting all the melee and bringing in ranged instead, but having a 3rd melee in a 10-man roster is a pretty bad decision all around because you will almost always want to sit at least one of them.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby stevos » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:29 am

This is the most anti-melee raid, I can think of.

For a few fights melee are more of a handicap in regards to pulling out the DPS numbers (a fair few dps checks). Just too many fights where they are physically unable to dps because they are having to move between things.

If you have good multidotting dps in all spots your laughing.
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Re: Ranged versus Melee in MoP Raiding

Postby stevos » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:40 am

Kishandra wrote:Heroic modes perspective from a 6/6:

Stone guards - no difference really. Melee do more cleave damage but jasper chains screw them over more.
Feng - melee > range for arcane phase. Range slightly > melee for fire phase. Slightly in favor of melee this fight.
Garajal - range have a slight advantage here - they kill spirits more efficiently than melee.
Spirit kings - a wash here. Range need to pay attention to more mechanics but melee don't stay on boss the entire time.
Elegon - melee kick range ass on this fight. Melee consistently outdamage range and are able to kill multiple waves of adds.
Will of the emperor - heavily melee favored. Enough range to clear out the rages as they spawn, then stack melee for the rest because of the 50% damage bonus.


Stone guards - They are bad for tanks since you end up having crap all over the floor around tanking points and lose dps to deal with chains. In addition they can't activate crystals (heroic) and dps, which means they have to decide between dps on the boss and getting the high fast.

Feng - Agreed

Garajal - I would say heavily favor multi-dotting range. Ours are able to go in dot everything up and leave within seconds and clear the shadow realm. Melee need to stay in to dps, thus losing dps time and also have more movement loss in dps. For example lose dps whilst moving to crystal and waiting for other 2 and lose dps moving between adds in shadow realm

Spirit kings - agreed - melee is useful for interrupt rotation

Elegon - whilst melee have favor in burst on adds, they also take considerably more damage since they can't drop stacks without stopping dps. Ranged can just jump and cast an instant. Multidotting ranged are ace for the adds also. I would rather have a full ranged group for this.

Will - Depends on tactic and formation of group. Can't a caster get the buff if they do the dance, whilst still putting out some dps on passing adds? Our tactic has been to clear the adds and worry about bosses later, saves healer mana and gives everyone more dps time on bosses during gas, which for us results in better overall dps than having a melee do the dance.
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