Tank DPS in T14 Raids

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Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Mogurii » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:58 pm

I see a lot of top damage parses from all the tank classes for many of the fights in T14.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... aults/dps/

What are these tanks, or possibly you, doing differently than me? Here are two kills from our last raid (we've had a slow start this tier):

Stone Guard: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ik58i3dy ... 675&e=3058
Feng: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ik58i3dy ... 748&e=9238

Thanks for any and all help.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Koatanga » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:15 pm

I'm not sure how you are handling the tanking and mob swapping for the Guardians fight. We have one tank (me) handling two of them the entire time, so my vengeance is high and my damage (and healing) correspondingly high. If you are on a single one, then you will be hitting something that has 90% damage reduction, so your damage will be low.

Without going into a detailed analysis, just judging by the two tanks' respective damage, it looks to me like you are swapping which of you has two.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Mogurii » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:28 pm

We are indeed. Perhaps we should not do that to increase raid DPS then.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Mogurii » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:32 pm

What about Feng, and Spirit Kings? What are tanks doing on those fights to get such high DPS?
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Koatanga » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:44 pm

If my raid gets better I'll let you know. Sad to say we have not seen more than the first guy outside of LFR. /facepalm

On the Guardians, if you have one tank handling two of them all the time, your melee DPS don't have to move as much. They can just sit back and cleave to their little hearts' content (when not standing in fire). This adds a bit of DPS. Our top DPS was a windwalker monk.

For tanks, the extra damage you would do would show up as less damage done by your bear, so it's a trade-off.

We did find that the extra healing I do is rather significant. I'm doing around 53k dps in the fight, and 28.5k hps. I do take more damage than my co-tank, but in the last sample I have the difference was 31.5% vs 18.8%, so it's certainly not twice as much.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:12 pm

Generally the way tanks get super high damage is by abusing vengeance. This usually takes on two forms. The first is taking extra damage on purpose throughout the fight, for example, standing in a purple puddle on stone guards and just having healers heal through it. This is an easy HPS -> DPS conversion, and recommended if you have the healing to spare.

The second way is trickier. You gain vengeance based on the damage of a spell before DR, so if you are able to survive an attack that would usually kill you - for example, the aoe slash from Qiang on spirit kings - you gain a huge amount of vengeance. So you run in with all CDs up, survive a huge hit, then bring the pain. One of our tanks pops all his defensive cooldowns to survive an annihilate on heroic and goes up to 500k vengeance immediately which he unleashes into an execution sentence or something to burst up to 300-400k dps for 30 seconds. Paladins in particular are great for doing this as they have AD to survive as much damage as needed. Overkill isn't converted into vengeance but being guaranteed to live through an attack, with increasing vengeance depending on the number of outside cds (ironbark/ps/sac, etc.) stacked up on the tank really helps.

And of course, you need a dps mentality as a tank to do very high levels of damage. Filling every gcd with offensive abilities, getting your rotation correct, gearing for hit/exp cap and crit/haste, eating crit/haste food, etc. For many years, tanks have not been expected to do competitive amounts of dps and the threat multiplier from their abilities have been ridiculous, especially since Firelands so there's been no need for a tank to do anything other than survive and position the boss, so most tanks are like "I need to take the least damage possible and survive" instead of what they "should" be currently: "I'll take the maximum damage possible that doesn't kill me so I can do max dps."
Last edited by Kishandra on Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby daishan » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:28 pm

I'd agree with most of that except gearing for crit, crit does nothing for our survival and is a pretty weak dps. Hit/exp caps net most dps at higher veng levels followed by haste exp hard cap and strength, the lower our veng the bigger contribution strength makes to our dps.
Don't read too much into Gara logs as it only logs what happens in the realm that your in, get a few ppl to link recount after a kill and look at the massive differences between each persons log.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Posid » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:36 am

Kishandra wrote:Generally the way tanks get super high damage is by abusing vengeance. This usually takes on two forms. The first is taking extra damage on purpose throughout the fight, for example, standing in a purple puddle on stone guards and just having healers heal through it. This is an easy HPS -> DPS conversion, and recommended if you have the healing to spare.

The second way is trickier. You gain vengeance based on the damage of a spell before DR, so if you are able to survive an attack that would usually kill you - for example, the aoe slash from Qian on spirit kings - you gain a huge amount of vengeance. One of our tanks pops all his defensive cooldowns to survive an annihilate on heroic and goes up to 500k vengeance immediately which he unleashes into an execution sentence or something to burst up to 300-400k dps for 30 seconds. Paladins in particular are great for doing this as they have AD to survive as much damage as needed. Overkill isn't converted into vengeance but being guaranteed to live through an attack, with increasing vengeance depending on the number of outside cds (ironbark/ps/sac, etc.) stacked up on the tank really helps.

And of course, you need a dps mentality as a tank to do very high levels of damage. Filling every gcd with offensive abilities, getting your rotation correct, gearing for hit/exp cap and crit damage, eating crit food, etc. For many years, tanks have not been expected to do competitive amounts of dps and the threat multiplier from their abilities have been ridiculous, especially since Firelands so there's been no need for a tank to do anything other than survive and position the boss.


Not to be nit picky or anything but I felt I need to point out that haste is far better than crit if you want to get an "offensive" stat for tanking. It might not be better than crit for pure DPS, but it helps with survivability as well because you get more SotRs off.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Kishandra » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:51 am

Sorry, I main as feral so I know crit is the stat for dps after hit/exp capping for bear, now I'll know to stack haste on my paladin.

Same basic principle though.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Brokenone » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:16 am

I have this same question...mainly on Feng 10H. How is the difference between #1 and #2 possible?

Prot Paladin Rank List

Top DPS, Brink at 101k
#2, me, at 77k

I'm absolutely baffled as to how someone could do THAT much more damage than me on this fight. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby daishan » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:26 am

Having a quick scan on the phone he just looks to be tanking the boss for a long time getting much vengeance.
Check http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-i ... 027&e=4517 he took 5 stacks of that debuff the other tank didn't even get to take the boss on that phase by the look of it.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Brokenone » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:32 am

My co-tank only took 3 stacks, but that was enough to reset my stacks (which was the point). That thing starts ticking absurdly hard, I guess he managed to live through it and use that vengeance to his advantage. Pretty unreal though that that would work out to 24k DPS
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:22 pm

Brink's report indicates pretty clearly that (s)he solo-tanked it and took a ton of stacks, only resetting with the immune bubble.

There is plenty of room to improve with use of Reversal, but I doubt you can manage to catch up to a solo-tank parse. Solo with Reversal will take some pretty hilarious gear.

Hit/Exp cap is the main thing I think, after that it's just concentrating on the rotation. Certain mechanics lead to insane tank damage (Guardians, Feng, Will) but you should be pretty competitive with the DPS normally, particularly on burst for adds and whatnot. Obviously the VERY top parses will always be crazy shit like solo tanking and intentional Vengeance stacking.
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Bellanka » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:47 pm

Looks like they just hotfixed Heroic Spirit Kings so the Argent Defender and GoAK/SoTR trick no longer works.

I went from 675k vengeance to barely 118k.

Boss despawned mid-attempt, and no more high vengeance =\
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Re: Tank DPS in T14 Raids

Postby Treck » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:43 am

I can confirm that, Bloodlord Mandokir now only gives me about 120k vengeance instead of 700k, making him a lot harder to solo.
It was a bit stupid on Spirit kings tho, some people using 4-5 protpaladins for it, and it was insanely much better for 10man than 25man.
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